Has anyone else noticed how many people in the last few days are saying something to the effect of: there's nothing illegal, but maybe unethical.
You can already see the story taking shape. I wouldn't be surprised if Alberto/Nike PR are planting these seeds. Sure seems like Ken Goe took the bait today.
This is classic crisis management. Control the message. Put one thing on the table so people stop talking about the other thing.
So rather than this being about Alberto/Nike/Galen doping, it's going to be about Alberto possibly crossing into the "gray area." He's just so driven and passionate about winning and will do anything for his athletes. He may have "crossed the line, but he didn't cheat."
Mark my words, this is how the story will play out. It's going to turn into a conversation about the "spirit of the sport" and maybe they should "change the rules so there's less of a gray area." It's not Alberto's fault - it's the rules' fault.
It's nonsense. But it's effective. And I'm afraid that's what will play out between now and USA's. And then once that meet happens, the story will mostly disappear as athletes head to Europe.
The only hope is Dave Epstein/BBC. They're very calculated in these types of investigations and it appears they have more information. Right when the spin comes about the "gray area" and the need for "clearer rules" we can only hope they have a bombshell.
This is Alberto's defense
Report Thread
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PR Specialist wrote:
Right when the spin comes about the "gray area" and the need for "clearer rules" we can only hope they have a bombshell.
Or we can hope that they don't, so that the best American-born runner in the last 20 years can keep his silver medal and win the gold medal in Rio.
I, for one, believe all of the accusations and I still wouldn't be mad if they come out with a story like the one you've outlined, clean up the shop, let WADA make the rules clearer, abide by those rules, and let Galen continue his trajectory to the top of the medal stand in Rio. -
Steve the Ginger fan wrote:
Or we can hope that they don't, so that the best American-born runner in the last 20 years can keep his silver medal and win the gold medal in Rio.
Don't be ridiculous, we'd all rather be right about this topic so we can burn the witches. Progress be damned. -
PR Specialist wrote:
Or we can hope that they don't, so that the best American-born runner in the last 20 years can keep his silver medal and win the gold medal in Rio.
Galen is my favorite athlete. That being said, he isn't the best American-born runner. Jenny Simpson probably takes that cake with a gold, silver, and a diamond league title. She also is knocking on the door of the 1500 AR and technically has the steeple.
Rupp might not even be the best male american. Centro has more hardware than him from world/olympics but Rupp does have way more AR's. -
Ever heard of Bernard Lagat?
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Ummmmmmmmm wrote:
Ever heard of Bernard Lagat?
Manzano and Lagat each have an Olympic silver as an American...and in a tougher event than Rupp's medal. -
I think you've locked down the basics of the Nike spin. I think it's most likely that nobody is penalized beyond the public relations consequences.
The only chance for a real bust is to catch an NOP athlete or two with some of the blatantly illegal stuff and get her or him to turn on the group with a promise of immunity.
I'd go after Ritzenhein if I were the investigators. He's already distanced himself from the group, but he likely has knowledge of (and participated in) the real PED use.
Or, maybe they're all innocent. -
Unfortunately, NOP-Rupp Fanboys only see Rupp. They are not true fans of track and field.
Bring Back the 880 wrote:
Manzano and Lagat each have an Olympic silver as an American...and in a tougher event than Rupp's medal. -
The only hope is Dave Epstein/BBC. They're very calculated in these types of investigations and it appears they have more information.
I'm not so sure Epstein is doing the best job for the Anti-NOP camp. One of the main reasons I think the narrative is changing towards the "ethics" angle is the Fleshman piece Epstein put out himself yesterday. It put the asthma and thyroid medication issues into a much less sinister light and even sort of humanized ALSal in the process.
Also Epstein's failure/unwillingness to put the "two vials" details in his original piece helped to diffuse things a bit for NOP. I think had the refrigerated vials and needles been in the ProPublica story it would have been much more damaging and painted a more sinister picture. I still don't know why he let the other tabloid steal his thunder like that.
But maybe he's doing his job as a fair journalist and letting the chips fall where they may instead of being an advocate for one side.
For sure, the anti-NOP crowd still needs its smoking gun if they're going to get the sort of ban they're hoping for. -
Man Overboard wrote:
For sure, the anti-NOP crowd still needs its smoking gun if they're going to get the sort of ban they're hoping for.
The pro-NOP crowd will refuse to accept the multiple smoking guns exposed so far. It seems that Salazar playing doctor, modifying real doctor's prescriptions, having faking fake illnesses to get prescriptions, handing out drugs from his home pharmacy, endangering the health of athletes, and having access to medical information only a doctor should have, are all OKAY to the pro-NOPers. -
This is Alberto's Defense:
That's it -
Man Overboard wrote:
For sure, the anti-NOP crowd still needs its smoking gun if they're going to get the sort of ban they're hoping for.
17 different athletes telling their own experiences with Al Salazar pushing dope. That's as "smoking gun" as it's going to get.
No hope for sanctions. -
PR Specialist wrote:
Has anyone else noticed how many people in the last few days are saying something to the effect of: there's nothing illegal, but maybe unethical.
You can already see the story taking shape. I wouldn't be surprised if Alberto/Nike PR are planting these seeds. Sure seems like Ken Goe took the bait today.
This is classic crisis management. Control the message. Put one thing on the table so people stop talking about the other thing.
So rather than this being about Alberto/Nike/Galen doping, it's going to be about Alberto possibly crossing into the "gray area." He's just so driven and passionate about winning and will do anything for his athletes. He may have "crossed the line, but he didn't cheat."
Mark my words, this is how the story will play out. It's going to turn into a conversation about the "spirit of the sport" and maybe they should "change the rules so there's less of a gray area." It's not Alberto's fault - it's the rules' fault.
It's nonsense. But it's effective. And I'm afraid that's what will play out between now and USA's. And then once that meet happens, the story will mostly disappear as athletes head to Europe.
The only hope is Dave Epstein/BBC. They're very calculated in these types of investigations and it appears they have more information. Right when the spin comes about the "gray area" and the need for "clearer rules" we can only hope they have a bombshell.
Except your read is stupid.
"If you don't like the message, change it," to paraphrase MadMen...
Nike certainly has people who can come up with something smarter.
"While some may find our using of TUE's and non-banned supplements to be unethical or in a gray area, we use sports medicine, to prevent causing life lasting health damage -- because I ruined my own health and immune system etc. through no preventative sports medicine back in the day -- we consider it our ethical duty to use any non banned substance shown to prevent or aid in causing life long dangerous health damage to our athletes to be our ethical duty.
That's why we use sports medicine, prevention -- and only sports medicine to protect some of our athletes future health lives. We do this on a case by case basis, as medical testing shows us an athlete is in danger of life lasting health damage.
Just as the NFL is dealing with concussion issues; we are concerned potential immune and thyroid health issues"
Etcs.
That's better spin and could be darned close to the truth, if you think deeply about it. -
Alberto will wait this out as he has done successfully until now. When he gives a response he will of course not admit any ethical mistakes. Rather he will say that for true Americans the only ethical and moral way of winning is to push every limit as far as possible. Seek out all possibilities. Dedicate yourself 100%. Leave no stone unturned.
And everyone will be satisfied. -
If the BBC really has a bombshell, (I doubt it, but you may be right) my bet would be that the the USADA and/or WADA knew everything Salazar was doing and gave him the ok. So the scandal will be knocked up to higher levels of authority, and away from Salazar/Rupp. And so many people on this board will be so bummed out.
But that aside, I do think you are wrong about nothing else happening. I think Nike is going to put some kind of leash on Salazar even if Salazar is otherwise exonerated. -
PR Specialist wrote:
So rather than this being about Alberto/Nike/Galen doping, it's going to be about Alberto possibly crossing into the "gray area." He's just so driven and passionate about winning and will do anything for his athletes. He may have "crossed the line, but he didn't cheat."
No. There is no such thing as a "gray area" here. WADA has definied a line between what is and what is not doping. By explicitly defining the line as they have they have indicated that anything that is not over the line is permisible. There's nothing in-between. The term "gray area" implies the rules are ambigious when they aren't. The rules are crysal clear and NOP played within them and did no wrong. -
Allergy Sufferer Again wrote:
PR Specialist wrote:
So rather than this being about Alberto/Nike/Galen doping, it's going to be about Alberto possibly crossing into the "gray area." He's just so driven and passionate about winning and will do anything for his athletes. He may have "crossed the line, but he didn't cheat."
No. There is no such thing as a "gray area" here. WADA has definied a line between what is and what is not doping. By explicitly defining the line as they have they have indicated that anything that is not over the line is permisible. There's nothing in-between. The term "gray area" implies the rules are ambigious when they aren't. The rules are crysal clear and NOP played within them and did no wrong.
Is this a joke? by "Grey Area", the idea is that the athletes are doping, but doing it in a way that they can not get caught. In order to test positive for certain steroids, you must exceed a set minimum proportion of it in your body. More often that not, that minimum is not zero. This is why micro-dosing is a thing. Don't forget how much of an effect masking agents have as well. -
If the BBC really has a bombshell, (I doubt it, but you may be right) my bet would be that the the USADA and/or WADA knew everything Salazar was doing and gave him the ok. [quote]ryan foreman wrote:
I think this is what was going on and that is why we didn't hear about anything. There is even dialogue/interviews/etc of basically this narrative, with Alberto contacting USADA/WADA to get clarification on the rules. Alberto doesn't strike me as being stupid, so for all the supplements he used, altitude tents, etc he is not going to get into trouble most likely and probably did the ok.
The things that have been outlined that are troubling and seem unethical are the dispensing of drugs, manipulation of the TUE process, and possible micro-dosing of testosterone or testosterone-supplements. All these would be difficult to prove.
With all that has gone on, there does need to be more transparency and clarification on things. It shouldn't be private as well. I don't like the idea of one athlete prospering over another due to better supplement use or access to technology. I will still cheer for Rupp, but I guess I would rather see guys like True, Derrick, etc get their due. Also, I would like to see Levins/Hasay/etc leave the group. I don't think the cloud of suspicion is going to leave the group and I would rather not have people put asterisks next to their accomplishments for the future. -
MikeM wrote:
Also, I would like to see Levins/Hasay/etc leave the group. I don't think the cloud of suspicion is going to leave the group and I would rather not have people put asterisks next to their accomplishments for the future.
Nike has likely already reassured Levins/Hasay/Cain, and other outliers in the NOP group that they will switch them over to another coach, or other coaches, if Alberto goes, and NOP is dissolved. I don't see NOP continuing on without Alberto. It was his creation after all. -
Lagat has a lot more hardware and American records (1500m/3000m/5000m) than Centro or Rupp.
