New Allegations- "Salazar had bag of needles"

xenonscreams wrote:

I am much more troubled by the suggestion he made to Kara Goucher post-pregnancy, but I'll start to take her seriously when she admits everything she knows, which I know she hasn't done yet. As much as I really admire her.

Kara was not an inner core member at NOP. She can only tell you what Salazar let her in on, which is not as much as you'd like for a conviction. But, put all of the coming statements about NOP together and you'll get a better picture.

Rupp knows most of what is going on, but he may trust Salazar to give him is meds and never ask what he is actually being given.

Farah knows the second most. Salazar is his coach and Farah said he does what coach says and asks no questions.

Centro may be in on part of top--level program. Like Farah he is the type that will do whatever Salazar tells him.

Salazar should be fired without question for endangering the lives of athletes. He's messing with drugs with real side effects. Particularly thyroid. It's dangerous.

His go to doctors need to be investigated, too.

My wife is a doc and when I tell her these stories about sharing prescriptions and passing thyroid medication around she is genuinely horrified and she couldn't give two shits about running. It puts things in perspective.

The doping is only icing on the cake.

not in thyroid land wrote:

not in the case of thyroid land, many doctors disagree on what's low and what's not, it's a big controversy on the interwebs.

Wrong. What a specific doctor prescribes is an absolute. Whatever another thinks about the prescription is meaningless. Another doctor can only make their own prescription. This is called second opinion in the medical field.

You should note, that for every expert in a field there are other experts who disagree with them. That is a fact of human life: my way is better than your way.

xenonscreams wrote:

I have a lot of trouble believing anything John Stiner says, even though I've heard he's an honest guy.

This makes sense, in the sense that it doesn't make any sense at all. (Just my two sense.)

Your opinion, reduced to a single sentence, seems to be, "Salazar may be stretching the ethics of sport to the limit, but based on what's now known, hasn't actually broken any rules." You go on to support this opinion by noting that there's no evidence that Salazar has provided anyone with EPO or hGH (thereby moving the bar for what constitutes "cheating" to a height that included only the starkest examples of rule-breaking) and also by noting that you think more research on a possible link between low T4 and heavy training needs to be done before such a link can be rules out.

Let me ask you this: Do you think it's ethical for a coach to hand out thyroid hormone like candy in advance of this research -- as if the default position is, "Well, no one has ruled out such a connection?" Because that is not the way sound medical research and medical practice work. According to available data, there is no established causative link between heavy endurance training and underactive thyroid glands. You may propose that this body of research is wrong for whatever reason, but it's what we have for now. Anyone who unilaterally decides to hand out thyroid hormone to athletes "just in case" is behaving in a way that is speculative at the very best and hopelessly irresponsible at worst.

I remind you that thyroid hormone, every type, is a prescription medication.

"I think the allergy shots are allergy shots and don't see anything unusual about them other than the lack of a label..."

Sorry, but this is very much akin to saying that you don't see anything unusual about that elephant except for the lack of a trunk, tusks and big flappy ears.

Michael stipe wrote:

Salazar should be fired without question for endangering the lives of athletes.

THIS is not exactly correct. WADA and the USADA can ban a coach for risking the health of athletes. But, the point is correct. Salazar should be fired and banned for playing doctor with his athletes.

I have friends who say that John Stiner would never lie even though he is "abrasive." Unfortunately, I've only ever encountered the abrasive side of him, so save for my friends' opinions, I have no reason to believe him. Because I trust my friends, I'm trying. But it was pretty much the last name I wanted to see associated with a leak. I wish it had been someone I had never heard of.

I'm pretty sure I said that he violates "spirit of the sport" which means he has broken rules. I call that out as illegal. I think that he thinks what he's doing is legal. It's a matter of whether or not I can empathize, not whether or not he's breaking any rules. Posters here are trying to polarize everyone into pro-Nike or anti-Nike but many of us probably do not view all doping cases the same way (there are varying degrees of unethical). Please actually read what I write and then try again.

As far as the allergy shots being unusual, aside from the lack of labels, as I've said several times in here already, I think it checks out perfectly. I think this because I've been getting allergy shots for over a year now and I know what they're like. I'm surprised John Stiner had never heard of allergy shots, especially when he apparently spent all of that time asking about which "allergy medications" have to be refrigerated.

xenonscreams wrote:

I am much more troubled by the suggestion he made to Kara Goucher post-pregnancy, but I'll start to take her seriously when she admits everything she knows, which I know she hasn't done yet. As much as I really admire her.

Wow big statement, if you know everything she knows, how do you know? and everything she knows, you must also know, because you know she has not told everything, so why don't you tell us?

It's the same rumor that everyone has heard at this point, that she wasn't an angel at NOP, that she actually was taking something, and that she left specifically to clean up. It's the source of the rumor that makes me think it's probably true, although I don't want it to be, because I like Kara.

It is still a rumor though so maybe "know" was strong and I shouldn't throw out accusations like that. I find it very, very probable that she is withholding information that would hurt her career and her personal and family life. I could be wrong.

The mystery vials contained Mo's urine. Albuterol felt that if Galen can develop antibodies against Mo's bodily fluids, he can then hold off Mo's devastating kick.

Just tellin'. wrote:

Just sayin'. sorry to burst your bubble pal but judging by your posts --using multiple nicks across multiple NOP topics-- you come across as a blind rat watching the Doped Ship Salazar going under. You really are completely blind, and are willing to access drug use, bending the rules, and manipulation of doctor's medical prescriptions, just so your favorite runner, Rupp, can continue to try to win metal. What a sad life you live.

Just sayin'. wrote:

hayward102 sorry to prick your bubble pal but judging by the posts on this page alone you come across as verbose without actually saying anything or contributing much but love telling others what they should or shouldn't say. Just sayin'.

FMD Just tellin', what are you on, I thought he was saying exactly the opposite to what you seem to think he was saying, ie free speech, and not who you seem to think he is either. Ah well, each to their own I suppose.

I did read what you wrote, and it wasn't clear to me whether you were really agreeing that Salazar has broken rules to such an extent that he should be sanctioned for it. It still isn't.

You say that violating the spirit of the sport implies the breaking of rules, but that's not necessarily true. (I could tell you three seconds before the start of a championship race that I've been nailing your boyfriend; that would be slimy, but not against the rules.) You clearly say that you think that what Salazar has done isn't as bad as giving athletes EPO or hGH, but if in fact what he has done is against the rules, then as far as governing bodies are concerned, it is just as bad, in the sense that Salazar can't simply skate on it. And you keep mentioning that too many people here are are either pro-Nike or anti-Nike, but I haven't said a word about Nike.

And as I and numerous others have already mentioned, the lack of an identifying label can't reasonably be dismissed as a trivial detail. Maybe in the absence of at least 17 serious and independent accusations of chemical shenanigans, a mysteriously unlabeled substance claimed by Salazar to be "allergy serum" -- a substance that on more than one occasion was shipped in such a way as to evade airport security or Customs or both -- wouldn't seem as suspicious. In context, it is extremely suspicious. And as with everything that continues to gush forth here, Salazar does not seem especially eager to explain any of it.

xenonscreams wrote:

It is still a rumor though so maybe "know" was strong and I shouldn't throw out accusations like that. I find it very, very probable that she is withholding information that would hurt her career and her personal and family life. I could be wrong.

Thank you.

Let me clear that up for you: Yes.

When it comes to doping, it is. Have you ever read the WADA rules? They specifically call that out as a catch-all.

Is everything black or white to you? Jesus Christ. If by "equally bad" you mean "also actionable," then yes, I agree that it is also actionable by USADA/WADA if there is enough evidence. I do not think it is an equally immoral action and I don't even think the sanctions should be equal in punishment, just like I think not all bans should be equal in duration.

I'm waiting for my allergist's response on whether or not specific labels are required for allergy serum. I don't think the shipping thing is that weird, though. I'd hate to have to take allergy shots and needles through security, especially if I'm in a hurry.

No, not everything is black or white to me. I don't think everyone who has bent rules in some way automatically deserves to be removed from the sport forever. But yes, for purposes of this discussion, that's exactly what I meant. In the end, WADA/USADA doesn't legislate morality.

What's interesting here is the understandable assumption you appear to be making -- and that I have probably made myself at times -- that messing around to excess with drugs that aren't strictly banned (thyroid meds, beta-agonists, corticosteroids) is less immoral than any use of stuff like EPO and hGH that is banned outright. I'm not so sure about that. I can easily conceive of situations in which properly administered and monitored EPO and hGH would be safer to the athlete than handing someone a bottle of Cytomel or some prednisone pills and saying, "Take this for a while and you'll feel better." The fact that you can get TUEs for some substances -- or not even require them to use them -- does not make them more medically benign than the stuff that WADA/USADA/etc. will never offer exemptions for.

Kind of a sidebar, but maybe worth thinking about.

Sure, I understand not wanting to take *anything* through security that the TSA idiots might take. But I don't think that your everyday, common-sense rationale plays any role in the weirdness going on with these particular vials.

Anyway, I didn't mean to seem like I was jumping on your case. Until Salazar decides to break his silence, this kind of death-spiral back-and-forth shit'll continue unabated. I know better than to get involved. I think.

Allergy shots need to be given by an allergy technician.....a person could have an allergic reaction and die. There is no way alberto or staff could give the shots. No doctor in his right mind would give alberto allergy shots to give.

Your source is a liar.

I thought I responded to this last night but I now see my response is not there for some reason.I just want to say I stand corrected. I actually didn't realize that Lawton had his own separate interview with Stiner. I thought he was only giving us extended information from the same BBC interview. Because a lot of it was just repeating the same news. Which is still kind of sleazy Journalism. But its not what I thought it was. And yes I misread the sentence. Salazar was sharing the room, not the Androgel, with Rupp. Although in my defense it was a poorly worded sentence. You don't share "my" room. You share "our" room. So I thought the sharing was the Androgel.

Krebs: You sent Stiner to clean up when you left the hotel here (points at map) to board the plane here and return here to Portland. He has made public the bottle of Androgel he found.

Hitler: That's old news. I already explained it was for my heart.

Krebs: Mein Fuhrer... Stiner...

Jodl: Stiner also reported finding two vials of liquid in the fridge and a bag of syringes.

Hitler: (removes glasses, prepares to rant)