Grant Fisher: Is he the 4th greatest Amerian HSer all-time?

Critical Thinking wrote:

Distaff wrote:

Ummm, ever hear of Jordan Hasay?

Seriously though, could someone compile a similar ranking for the girls.

From a few years ago:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5546765

Thanks. I'd also like to see a girl's list, as I know less about them. I imagine any girl's list could use an update with the likes of Efraimson, Cain, Cranny, and Hasay being relatively recent.

I really don't know enough to make a good female list, though.

Hahaha. Ok buddy. We get it- Maton is your favorite!In any ranking system, Fisher will be #1, and Maton will be #2. Wins, and the number of very low-4:00 performances throughout the year obviously tilt the scales in favor of GF. And he did it all while still scoring points for his school.

Maton fan wrote:

Fisher is not the Top miler this year, he is tied for top Miler with another guy and not Fisher's fault but again they can't race head to head this year.....you can't dominate if the other guy who broke 4 first and is just as fast as you are is not racing, sorry

Link wrote:

This is very rare: A post on LR that is interesting, timely, about running, and, most rare of all, made me change my mind.

And this ^ is why I dig this site and sift through all the crap that is here. Well done.

Virgin was arguably better at HS cross-country than Ritz was. His course record at Detweiler has withstood challenges from LV, Derrick, and Sage. In addition, the Torres brothers, Evan Jager, and Jim Spivey never really got close to Virgin's course record. None of those guys were exactly chopped meat.

LV ran 8:29 and 3:59 six months after he last tried to take down Virgin's course record.

Sage ran 4:00.29 and 8:46 six months after he last tried to take down Virgin's course record

Derrick ran 13:52 the year he tried to take down Virgin's record.

Virgin took 13th at AAU senior cross-country nationals in an Olympic year. As great as Ritz was, he never would have placed that high at senior nationals while in high school. It seems likely Virgin would have dispatched Grant Fisher quite early in a mythical high school cross-country race. The only guys Virgin would have had trouble with in cross-country would have been Lindgren, Jeff Nelson, and Fernandez.

Virgin's track performances easily match all that Ritz accomplished on the track.

Fun post 162430

While it is debatable as to who should be in the top 10 HS mid/distance runners of all time. Or where Grant Fisher might be/not be in that list. There is no debating who in the modern information era and with the onset of dedicated running websites like Milesplit, Dyestat, Flotrack and others, is the King of HS track and field. Grant Fisher has celebrity status with the very soon to be next generation of Elite, semi-elite, die-hard enthusiasts - you name it runners. This kid is the poster child for the new wave of track and field in the USA. There will be others but GF is at the beginning of this trend and is helping get T&F onto phones, IPads, and in young peoples minds like no other HS T&F athlete has. Kids like GF may be the ones to hopefully get T&F more TV coverage and into the mainstream which is something we all should be actively working at/hoping for. I am told he has cult-like status among HS T&F athletes and that Pros are talking about him as well. Have a listen to GF getting a ride back to his hotel after the dream mile. He recognizes the impact that social media is having on T&F. For that alone he should have emeritus status in the top 10 list (I know that statement will rock some of you posters' world).

Have a listen:

http://www.milesplit.com/videos/94865

Interesting take on HS runners (Grant Fisher), social media and what that means for the future of Track and Field.

If Fisher is the current King of HS Track and Field from a social media standpoint, I would say the Queen was Mary Cain. She too as done much for the future of track by being at the forefront of HS girls (primarily) minds. Looking forward to Mary Cain racing for a long time. I also look forward to the wave of other young HS runners on the heels Grant Fisher and Mary Cain that through social media will boost the status of Track and Field like no other era has. Fisher and Cain were the pioneers.

MI Strong wrote:

v6 wrote:

The Ritz / Fisher debate is a tough one. I don't think anyone would deny that Ritz's two wins are more impressive than Fisher's, based on quality of the field and margin. But Ritzenhein never did anything hugely impressive under 5000m in track, so Fisher has range on his side. Ritz nabbing a bronze on the world stage probably tips it in his favor for me, but Fisher is more well-rounded so I understand either argument.

Both from Michigan (Ritz and Fisher). Both in the A-T discussion.

The big unknown about Fisher is his untapped potential based on his coming into the sport late and most likely not doing near the volume of training of the others in discussion.

Fisher is like a violin... has tremendous range and is beautiful to listen to (watch) whether being played (running) slow or fast = Stradivarius.

Fisher is a gamer. The kid can race. Much goes into that statement as racing and trying to win is what a race is all about. I have watched Fisher beat kids and older runners in any situation that the race unfolds under. He has beaten faster runners then he by being smart. This year (his first year where he dedicated himself to running full time), he has soloed to run near 4 minute mile times (indoor and outdoors), tactfully raced to near 4 minute mile times, and being pulled through to under a 4 minute mile where he put himself into position to win a pro race but didn't have the strength to pull it off. I have never seen a HS kid race the way Fisher does. There may have been others in years past that were faster but at the level he competes and in the big time races - there is no match when it comes to racing ability.

Ritz's 14:10 5K state meet course record at MIS is superior to the Virgin's 13:50 3M Illinois State meet record.

Ritz beat Sage as a junior (just "6 months prior" to your reference times) and then improved ~20 seconds on several courses from his junior to senior year.

AAU/USATF senior nationals cross country placing 3 decades apart is a horrible basis for comparison.

Did Virgin run 13:44 on the track in high school?

I do think Fisher would have had trouble with Virgin in cross though. Where Fisher excels is with his leg speed on the track. What was Virgin's best mile in high school? Fisher is certainly capable of blowing Virgin's HS 2 mile out of the water (considering Brannigan, Hunter, etc have been within a few seconds earlier earlier this year).

I'm willing to bet that everyone putting Grant Fisher as a top-5 all-time would also say that Steph Curry is a Top-5 all-time point guard.

It's tempting to go hyperbolic when we're watching someone perform at a high level, but two weeks ago Grant Fisher was not even considered to be the best runner of high school class. A few months before that, we questioned whether he was the best in his state.

Ryun, Webb, Ritz, Lindgren, Verzbicas, Virgin: All were indisputably legendary during their senior years. They all seemed destined for NCAA and Olympic greatness.

I would be pleasantly shocked if Grant Fisher ever wins an NCAA title in anything. I just do not see what everyone else is seeing.

Lenny, come on man... "two weeks ago" - what? Opinion is great but are you upset that one of your MI boys didn't get the same recognition or are you Watchout how has bashed GF and tried to raise Washington State runners above GF?

If you are from Michigan, Brazier is very talented and will be so in college and we can hope beyond that. He is an amazing runner with a very bright future but doesn't have the consequtive big wins like Fisher and doesn't yet have a time in the 800m to match Fisher's sub 4. Wetzel is a great HS runner and will also do well in college. But how can you say "two weeks ago... and a few months ago...

Fisher has been the most dominant HS runner in his track event/s and cross country for two years straight. He has not lost a HS race in his state or nationally for two years straight all the while never ducking the major meets.

Fisher definitely is the best in the state of Michigan and he definitely is the best in his events - in the nation.

Not from Michigan or Washington.

Two weeks ago Grant Fisher had a 1600m PR of 4:00.28, nearly 2.5 seconds slower than Matthew Maton. He was also the 13th fastest 3200m runner (not including 2-miles), and not even on the radar in any other events. All of the hyper and media attention was on Maton until he pulled out of his season with injury.

Out of 29 FL Finals run at Balboa, Fisher had the 17th and 23rd fastest times. He has had some impressive margin of victory, but if he is one of the best EVER, how does he jump over all of the 14:40-15:00 guys? Once you get to that level, you can't make the argument that he had "more left in the tank." There's no glory in saving energy, especially if you are an otherworldly talent.

If he wins the two-mile over Brannigan and Hunter, it will be expected. He needs to run a 8:35 or thereabouts to start getting consideration for top-5. Those guys should not be in his league, so why not blast some 64 second laps once you hit the mile. Even if you blow up, you should be able to crush them if you are truly the 4th best high school runner in US history.

I can't picture that happening.

In response to Lenny Leonard:

The media around Maton was well deserved. Yet don't you think the media was searching up and down for someone to talk about besides Fisher?

Having one person who wins everything is not good for hits/sales. So when someone pops up that may be able to challenge Fisher - the media is all over it.

That's a good thing IMO because it brings more attention to the sport of Track and Cross Country.

Cross Country... well like it or not Fisher doesn't bust his balls for arm chair fans to try and break this course record or that. Nope, he just goes into a race with a plan to win - and win he does. Besides, why would a miler who does far less training than most (if not all) of who he competes against and especially those that have had faster FL times in the past go out and take the pace? How many times do you have to read it or hear it from the athlete and his coach - he doesn't run for time, he runs to win. That mindset doesn't upset me but it must upset you.

If you want to see Fisher run fast times, perhaps you should encourage his competition to run faster then they have.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

If he wins the two-mile over Brannigan and Hunter, it will be expected. He needs to run a 8:35 or thereabouts to start getting consideration for top-5. Those guys should not be in his league, so why not blast some 64 second laps once you hit the mile. Even if you blow up, you should be able to crush them if you are truly the 4th best high school runner in US history.

I can't picture that happening.

I can't picture that happening unless it has to. Why would Fisher blast laps just to potentially blow up? He has US Junior prelims the following Thursday and wants to make the final. He has raced several high level and high result races in the past few weeks. The only way you will see 8:35 is if others blast some 64 second laps. As MI Strong posted: Fisher races to win and I'll add that he runs for himself and not those out there that want him to run phenomenal times for their pleasure or stats. With this kid, those kind of times will come if the pace dictates such.

Good luck to Fisher this weekend and at US Juniors. Your season/s have been phenomenal and you have been a pleasure to watch RACE.

I feel a little crazy saying this, but I don't believe that I am in any way insulting Grant Fisher by saying that he is potentially one of the top-10 track/XC athletes in history. I have tuned into all of his races this year as well.

As far as I know, Fisher has never claimed to be the #4 runner of all-time. If I met him personally and told him that I think he is a potential top-10 all-time talent and should be mentioned alongside guys like Webb and Ritz, I'd hope he would not think I was putting him down...

Your argument about the 8:35 in the 2-mile is right in line with mine. His top competition in that race are two guys with PRs or 8:45 and 8:48. Guys he has bested every time that they have lined up against one another.

Where do you think Braningan and Hunter stand in the history of HS track? Top-50? Top-25? If you think so, then this could be a battle for the ages.

I tend to believe that Fisher is far and away the class of this field. He can win this race in a variety of ways, including running solo to an all-time 2-mile performance. If he feels he has to keep on someone's shoulder until 300m to go, then it would seem like he views these guys as true competition, even though you are saying he has no true competition in this or any year.

Uhhh, yeeeeah, no one with a brain questioned whether Fish was the best runner of his class or in his state. Nice try though.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

It's tempting to go hyperbolic when we're watching someone perform at a high level, but two weeks ago Grant Fisher was not even considered to be the best runner of high school class. A few months before that, we questioned whether he was the best in his state.

[quote]Lenny Leonard wrote:

"As far as I know, Fisher has never claimed to be the #4 runner of all-time. If I met him personally and told him that I think he is a potential top-10 all-time talent and should be mentioned alongside guys like Webb and Ritz, I'd hope he would not think I was putting him down..."

Why would you say this?

"Where do you think Braningan and Hunter stand in the history of HS track? Top-50? Top-25? If you think so, then this could be a battle for the ages"

I haven't a clue. Top 10 was difficult enough for me.

"even though you are saying he has no true competition in this or any year"

I never said/wrote that, you did. What I did say/imply is for Fisher to run those Hyperbolic" times to please folks out there, his competition would have to run faster. Because... he doesn't race for time, he races to win.

Everything that Fisher has done convinces me that he is in the top 10 all time and I believe I have backed that up with facts and some emotion. Constructive debate is good. However, if one makes strong statements they have to be backed up with fact.

It seemed like people thought I was disrespecting Fisher by not agreeing with the OP's assertion that he is the 4th greatest all-time.

I thought that someone who was #4 all-time would be head and shoulders ahead of their current competition. You are correct that no one stated that he has any competition this year, but it's sort of implied when you say he is on the same level as Jim Ryun? If 1966 Jim Ryun was running in 2015, I would pick him every time.

If the OP had asked "Is Fisher #10 all-time?" I would not have even responded. I could live with that possibility.

#4? NUMBER FOUR!?!?!!! I don't think so.

In the mile: Webb, Ryun undoubtedly better resumes

In XC: Ritz, Virgin, Lindgren, Torres, Solinsky, Goucher, Reina, Davis - all better, with another 10 all just as good as Fisher

In the 3200m: I could name 20 guys with better resumes

In the 800m: I could name 30 just in the last 10 years that are better

whatinthe... wrote:

Uhhh, yeeeeah, no one with a brain questioned whether Fish was the best runner of his class or in his state. Nice try though.

What about this thread:

#3-10 are up for debate wrote:

Ryun and Webb are #1 and #2Webb would be NCAA contenders as seniors in HS. Lindgren too.

Agreed.

Too much focus is on Alan Webb's xc performance, when xc was only a side product of Alan.

No one ever thought Jim ryun's record was going to break. Alan Webb went to a whole new level.

If you're concerned about range, Alan also went 1:47. Aside from Ryan I don't know what the next best 800 is from sub 4 milers in high school.

Webb had 800 potential that balances out his lack of xc luster.