Grant Fisher: Is he the 4th greatest Amerian HSer all-time?

importance of noise wrote:

v6 wrote:

The Ritz / Fisher debate is a tough one. I don't think anyone would deny that Ritz's two wins are more impressive than Fisher's, based on quality of the field and margin. But Ritzenhein never did anything hugely impressive under 5000m in track, so Fisher has range on his side. Ritz nabbing a bronze on the world stage probably tips it in his favor for me, but Fisher is more well-rounded so I understand either argument.

Then you need to add Rich Kimball, world junior XC champion, to your list. He also pulled off a nasty double at the 1974 CA state track meet -- 8:46 2 mile, followed by a 4:06 mile 70 minutes later, winning both races.

That was before African dominance, though. Big difference. 8:46 and 4:06 are great, but German did a better double.

anacondarunner wrote:

This is indeed a great thread.

Figuring out where to rank Rupp is tricky. He never won Footlocker and he never broke 4, so I don't think we can put him ahead of Fisher/Verzbicas/Webb/Ritz/Ryun. Lindgren and German had more impressive high school careers than Rupp, too. IMO Rupp finally enters the conversation after those seven, primarily off the strength of his 13:37, which probably won't be broken for a long time, if ever.

Rupp. Are you kidding?

He didn't win anything in HS. He was 4th at Foot Lockers.

He was smoked by McDougal indoors that year:

Paid Nike employees, just stick to what you are supposed to be doing on these boards - defending Alberto. Rupp ran 13:37 in July. It won't be broken for a long time because a) the average HSer doesn't run the 5k or b) get to go to Europe in HS or c) read Epstein's report.

You can LOL about Pre all you want, but consider: HS meet, led every step, dirt track. Put that same kid in a competitive race today with today's equipment and surfaces and I bet he runs 8:20. 46 years later he is still the 8th fastest performer of all time.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

Ryun and Webb are #1 and #2

Fisher is good, but not top-10 all-time. He never raced Maton this year. Andrew Hunter looks like he will run faster than Fisher next year. When you look at the other guys around him, Fisher just doesn't stand out.

This might be one of the worse posts I've read in a long time. Weldon is looking into new forum software. I'd like to have the ability to vote posts but maybe we also can vote them down.

He doesn't stand out. What??? When was the last time the guy lost a HS race? I'm serious. It's been years, hasn't it?

It amazes me that people think greatness is defined solely by times.

Fisher is a 2-time FL champ and sub-4 guy in HS. It's almost impossible to imagine that doesn't put him in the top 10 all-time.

In addition to that, hew on the adidas Dream Mile last year in 4:02.02 (faster thaan Hunter ran this year) and the Brooks 2-mile in 8:51. So he's basically won everything of note in the country in both xc, mile and 2mile. Utterly dominant in all three areas.

What does Andrew Hunter have to do with anything? He's a beast and could be great next year but what Hunter does next year has no bearing on where we rank Fisher now.

Also, the rankings shouldn't include Verzbicas or King Ches. We're talking about Americans or should be in my mind.

We're talking about high schoolers. Only a xenophobic would unnecessarily limit this discussion to Americans. Should Verzbicas's accomplishments be treated differently than, say, Ritz's solely because he wasn't born in the USA?

Grant Fisher wasn't born in America, either, so I guess he shouldn't even be in the conversation, am I right??

webb's range wrote:

3) Webb. Due to his HS mile time perhaps being unbeatable. Granted, Webb didn't have the same range as many that I rank below him but his mile time will stand the test of time.

Is this a joke?

Webb ran 47r-1:47.74-3:53-8:45i on a flat track in his only attempt.

Sometimes we forget how good people are, and sometimes we speculate too much, but Webb could* have obliterated the 2M record as well but the mile meant more. Additionally, the only person he lost to in XC was a guy that finished 3rd at WJXC.

So 47r-XC...Not one other person has Webb's range. Being able to run a mile and a 5k does not constitute range.

well said. I was thinking the same reading through the thread.

Ryun

Webb

Lindgren

Ritz

Besides their accomplishments that have been pointed out, these guys could have been top 3 in their strongest event in the country their senior years. Could not say that about Grant Fisher (not even close)

holbythebear wrote:

webb's range wrote:

Is this a joke?

Webb ran 47r-1:47.74-3:53-8:45i on a flat track in his only attempt.

Sometimes we forget how good people are, and sometimes we speculate too much, but Webb could* have obliterated the 2M record as well but the mile meant more. Additionally, the only person he lost to in XC was a guy that finished 3rd at WJXC.

So 47r-XC...Not one other person has Webb's range. Being able to run a mile and a 5k does not constitute range.

well said. I was thinking the same reading through the thread.

Ryun

Webb

Lindgren

Ritz

Besides their accomplishments that have been pointed out, these guys could have been top 3 in their strongest event in the country their senior years. Could not say that about Grant Fisher (not even close)

Ritz was not top 3 in the country in the 5K/10K/cross country in high school. He ran at USATF senior and finished like 10-12 I believe. Was Webb even top 3 with his 3:53?

Hail to the VICTORS - Fisher is from Michigan

Buaidh no bas - Victory or death, Clan Campbell - the Fisher name is from the Scottish Campbell Clan.

Victory = triumph.

Victory = the opposite of defeat.

Fisher has not lost a high school cross country or track race in over two years. Has competed in all the major meets over the last two years of which he has dominated in some and skillfully achieved victory in others. For all the arm chair, low achieving posters out there. Racing is more about winning than time. Bedford was a great time trial specialist and ran great times but never won the big ones and that is why he is tough to remember. World records are remembered but Olympic victory is what athletes dream of.

Going off of this, I love how the mods changed the thread title to add "American" in it when the OP's question had NOTHING to do with nationality. This only reinforces the worst inferences a LRC visitor can make about the site's agenda and undeniably xenophobic tendencies.

Again, Verzbicas's high school accomplishments aren't ANY less legitimate than an American's. Same for King Ches's. As such, they clearly belong in the conversation.

"Grant Fisher wasn't born in America, either, so I guess he shouldn't even be in the conversation, am I right??"

No, you are wrong.

Fisher's mother is from Texas (last I heard Texas is part of the United States). Lots of Americans live and work overseas and have children while there. Fisher has been living in Michigan since he was 2 or 3 years old - he is much more American than Chez or Verzbicas.

I for one feel the influx of foreign kids that do not have US citizenship and come from sketchy countries when it comes to birth record certification, shouldn't be allowed to rewrite US HS record books or be in this conversation.

Bringer of Truthiness wrote:

No love for Rudy Chapa?

28:32 10,000M, '76 Olympic Trials qualifier, still standing HSR.

That 10K time by Rudy was sick. Anyone else know what that's equivalent to for the 2-mile/5K? Has anyone else tried to beat that since? I vaguely rememeber Rupp trying in HS, and failing to break 29.

Also, someone said that Ritz (my favorite HS runner ever, BTW) was undefeated in HS his last few years. From my memory, Webb beat him in an indoor 2-mile at one point. Something like an 8:45, which was close to the indoor record at the time (I think Lindgren or Virgin had it then?).

webb's range wrote:

3) Webb. Due to his HS mile time perhaps being unbeatable. Granted, Webb didn't have the same range as many that I rank below him but his mile time will stand the test of time.

Is this a joke?

Webb ran 47r-1:47.74-3:53-8:45i on a flat track in his only attempt.

Sometimes we forget how good people are, and sometimes we speculate too much, but Webb could* have obliterated the 2M record as well but the mile meant more. Additionally, the only person he lost to in XC was a guy that finished 3rd at WJXC.

So 47r-XC...Not one other person has Webb's range. Being able to run a mile and a 5k does not constitute range.

Agreed. Webb's range in HS (and later on as well) in unmatched, certainly among American runners. Agreed he could've gotten close to the 8:36 2-mile record if he tried. He was better than Ritz over 2 miles, but he lost to him 5K and up (it ain't too bad to lose to the greatest HS XC runner of all time!).

Rojo with the BURN! I'd vote your posts up always if I could!

I guess looking at it this way: If I were a college recruiter, would I trade years off of my life for Grant Fisher? No.

Alan Webb? Absolutely

Jim Ryun? Without a doubt

Lukas Verzbikas? Probably

But I just have not been blown away by any of Grant's runs. Hell, one of the Brojos was trying to get a debate going that Grant isn't even the best CURRENT runner in his own STATE. Now he's top-10 all-time?

What has Grant Fisher won of note in the 2-mile? His state meet?

The reason I bring up Hunter is because Grant Fisher only seems to be marginally better than Hunter currently. I am not willing to say Andrew Hunter is Top-10 all-time, so I do not see why Grant Fisher should be placed there.

Bad memory. That never happened. They never raced a 2 mile.Ritz ran 8:41.1 for 3200m as a junior outdoors though. Never gave it a serious attempt his senior year, as he was training for world cross and then the outdoor 5K record. Ended up going 13:51 at Penn and then 13:44.7 at USATF.

GoldenMiles wrote:

Also, someone said that Ritz (my favorite HS runner ever, BTW) was undefeated in HS his last few years. From my memory, Webb beat him in an indoor 2-mile at one point. Something like an 8:45, which was close to the indoor record at the time (I think Lindgren or Virgin had it then?).

no actually this wrote:

Bad memory. That never happened. They never raced a 2 mile.

Ritz ran 8:41.1 for 3200m as a junior outdoors though. Never gave it a serious attempt his senior year, as he was training for world cross and then the outdoor 5K record. Ended up going 13:51 at Penn and then 13:44.7 at USATF.

GoldenMiles wrote:

Also, someone said that Ritz (my favorite HS runner ever, BTW) was undefeated in HS his last few years. From my memory, Webb beat him in an indoor 2-mile at one point. Something like an 8:45, which was close to the indoor record at the time (I think Lindgren or Virgin had it then?).

Really? I could've sworn they raced an indoor 2-mile against each other. Oh well....

I was always pissed Ritz never went after the 2-mile record his senior year. I think he's could've gotten 8:36 for sure. Sad he put so much effort into the 5K and was just a fraction of a second off Lindgren's record. Shows just how insanely talented Lindgren was. I'd probably put him and Ryun as the top two, like everyone else. Ritz and Webb are the next level for me. Grant is certainly top ten, and, hell, maybe even top five. As others say, a good two-mile time will cement his legacy.

I think they were mostly arguing with your (poor) word choice. You said Grant Fisher doesn't standout. He is undefeated for his last two seasons and a sub 4 miler - that's pretty much textbook definition of a standout in HS.

In any case, if you were intending to say that he doesn't standout amongst top 10 types, then yes, you are correct.

Two-Time FL Winners (?)..

Abdirizak Mohammed

Dathan Ritzenhein

Chris Solinsky

Lukas Verzbikas

Grant Fisher

4 two-time winners in the last 15 years. So it's no longer a rare feat.

And it's not certain that he is better than LV, DR, or CS in XC.

But I think the debate is whether Grant is top 10 All time. #4 is ridiculous.

I agree with you -- he's not in the same league as Ryun, Webb, Lindgren. And it remains to be seen whether he's in the same league as LV & GermF (on the track).

And he's in the same boat or a little ahead of:

Ed Ches 1:49/4:02/8:39i/13:57i

Centro 4:03/8:41

Ritz 8:43/13:44

Rupp 4:01/13:37

Virgin

GoldenMiles wrote:

Bringer of Truthiness wrote:

No love for Rudy Chapa?

28:32 10,000M, '76 Olympic Trials qualifier, still standing HSR.

That 10K time by Rudy was sick. Anyone else know what that's equivalent to for the 2-mile/5K? Has anyone else tried to beat that since? I vaguely rememeber Rupp trying in HS, and failing to break 29.

Also, someone said that Ritz (my favorite HS runner ever, BTW) was undefeated in HS his last few years. From my memory, Webb beat him in an indoor 2-mile at one point. Something like an 8:45, which was close to the indoor record at the time (I think Lindgren or Virgin had it then?).

+2. Chapa was incredible. What's the closest anyone has gotten to his record?

I am excited about Fisher, but he's not even top 4 all-time in the HS mile.

Ryun & Lindgren are far, far above everyone else. A good test is if the athlele was competitive with at least college, if not national/international.

For example, Webb's time was amazing and I honestly never expected Ryun's 3:55 to be broken, but he was pretty fay back in that race, as I recall. Pre was competing internationally following his senior HS year, I believe.

Ryun and Lindgren are one-two for fairly obvious reasons; it gets real difficult from there. To narrow it down, here are a few you can remove, Virgin, Rupp and Fernandez. Btw, Ritz was only a 4:05 miler, but his 3rd place at WJXC is big in way that would take more typing than I am up to right now.

1) Ryun

2) Ritz

3) Verzbicas

4) Lindgren

5) Fisher

6) German

7) Chapa

8) Virgin

9) Webb

10) Rupp

11) Centro

12) Pre

13) Maton

14) Cheserek

15) AlSal

16) Bob Kennedy

17) Jim Rosa

18) Josh McDougal

19) Shadrack Kiptoo

20) Mac Fleet