Grant Fisher: Is he the 4th greatest Amerian HSer all-time?

Jim Ryun and Gerry Lindgren, contemporaries in the mid-60's, will always be the best.

They both broke American Records in high school, not just high school records. Lindgren ran 4:01 for 1 mile and 13:17 for 3 miles during the same weekend on a dirt track! ........50 years ago.

v6 wrote:

Davey Gravy wrote:

I have to disagree with your criteria for al time best. I would put it more like this:

1. Competitive with pros/ncaa: Ryun, Lindgren, Webb

2. All time great performances (era dependent)/HSR: Ritz, Fernandez, Virgin

3. Dominated high school competition: Fisher and a ton of other runners that come along every few years, although fisher is probably at the front of this group with the sub 4

I would argue that Ritz was competitive with pros and NCAA runners based on his 3rd place at IAAF World Junior Championships (beating Tegenkamp). Also ran 13:44.

If we were counting XC, I might agree, but as XC is a bit different than track it is hard to say. However, he was still fairly competitive in track: US#20 in the 5k that year, compared to Webb's #1 in the mile.

Fisher, by the way, is tied with Maton and just outside the US top 40.

IMO, the top 4 is pretty clear, but the order of those is debateable: Lindgren, Ritz, Ryun, Webb

The next group might include Fisher and Fernandez and Lukas, but also includes many others. Guys like Virgin and Chapa, who have pretty good arguments for being ahead of the current and recent crop of high schoolers to come through. I would probably say Virgin is #5, and everyone rounding out the top 10 (and those close to it) are just too hard to bother trying to separate - Fisher likely among them.

It's more difficult to achieve a God-level performance when the first year that you are dedicated 100% to running is your senior year.

FYC wrote:

I also think that Fisher hasn't had a "God-Level" Performance yet. He hasn't gotten a record or a major win that would make him undisputed top-5. "God Level" races would be Webb's 3:53, German's Double, Ritz's World XC bronze, Ryun's 3:55, Verzbicas' 8:29, Lindgren's 13:44 etc.

Fisher and Ritz in a high school 2mile, would be the same result as Ritz and Webb in the 10K.......Fisher sits on Ritz and outsprints him in the final 75-100 yards. Ritz liked to time trial his races, while Fisher races. I think the faster time in the mile points to the potential of a faster 2 mile for Fisher if he decides to press from start to finish. Again, he's had a busy past 3 weeks, but should win with a decent time but not sub 8:40 time.

Wait, so Maton's was more impressive because... his last 400m was a little bit faster?He was NOT in "no man's land" for a lap and a half, as you say. He was in a chase pack until about 440m to go, when he went to the front of that pack and made his drive for home. He had a guy dropping off the lead pack in front of him, who he passed with about 250m to go. That sounds pretty ideal to me. Nothing is better than having someone coming back to you and having no one in your way. No man's land, on the other hand, is when you're 50m back, all by yourself, in a 5K/10K. So please re-watch the race and realize that no man's land doesn't apply at any point.Regarding Fisher's race. he increased his speed as his race went on, splitting 2:02.1 (809m) - 1:57.2 (800m). So a 58.8-58.4 last 800m of a sub 4:00 mile is "less impressive"? That's nonsense.As far as all-time lists, Maton frankly doesn't deserve to be mentioned. His cross country and track national-level finishes aren't nearly strong enough. 3rd at FLN and 2nd at the Dream Mile as a junior is very good, but in the context of all-time best runners, it doesn't add up to much.And for the record, I like Maton and think he'll do great in college.

Great question and a thread with a positive tone that causes one to think and harken back to past HS greats.

In my opinion:

1) Ryan - no question

2) Lingren - similarly, no question

3) Webb. Due to his HS mile time perhaps being unbeatable. Granted, Webb didn't have the same range as many that I rank below him but his mile time will stand the test of time.

4) Fisher. Maybe its because I like what I see in the kid. What sets him apart from the others is his refreshing attitude on the joy of racing versus chasing a clock. He may not have the dominant abilities of my top three and even some that I have ranked below but the kid is the smartest US HS racer I have ever seen. His range for his era is amazing in both track and cross country. His newness to the sport, the way he trains and how he conducts himself in front of the camera is compelling to me. Yes there is some emotion in my #4 pick.

5) Ritzenhein. Kid was a beast in HS cross country. The best ever in HS cross. What he did internationally in cross and his 14:10 time at the Michigan HS championships is why I say "best ever"

His range on the track for HS races brought him down a notch in my ranking.

6) Verzbicas. Would have been my #4 however there is too much controversy about his age and I was torn to have him in the list at all due to him being Lithuanian.

7) Virgin.

8) Fernandez.

9) Chapa. Him being behind Fernandez is due to my opinion that 10km is not a high school race.

10) Pre. He went on to greatness but he didn't have the times in HS as did/do some of the others.

Pre ran 8:41.5 on a dirt track in 1969, what do you mean he didn't have the times? Only Lindgren had run faster. Sub 9:00 was still a rarity.

... and that was a solo effort on a dirt track. He also ran 13:52.8 for 5k. Jeez.

People he's behind:

Ryun

Lindgren

Ritz

Webb

Verzbicas (close)

People he's ahead of:

German (close)

Virgin

Chapa

Rupp

Nelson

Pre

Anyone else I haven't listed

Pre ran 8:41.5 on a dirt track in 1969, what do you mean he didn't have the times? Only Lindgren had run faster. Sub 9:00 was still a rarity.[/quote]

Just my opinion and was following the spirit of the thread.

It is tough, and debatable, due to lack of national type meets in cross and track that some on my list didn't have access to in their day. My brain may not remember so well either.

What is your top ten list and why?

having fun with it wrote:

What is your top ten list and why?

Ryun

Lindgren

Pre

I give these guys top 3 because they were true pioneers, running far above the standard of their day. 3 sigma events, definitely.

This is an interesting topic for discussion but points out the difficulty of comparing eras. We tend to have a bias toward more recent performances if only because they are fresh in memory.

Bringer of Truthiness wrote:

having fun with it wrote:

What is your top ten list and why?

Ryun

Lindgren

Pre

I give these guys top 3 because they were true pioneers, running far above the standard of their day. 3 sigma events, definitely.

This is an interesting topic for discussion but points out the difficulty of comparing eras. We tend to have a bias toward more recent performances if only because they are fresh in memory.

LOL @ Pre being third on your list.

Verzbicas is being serially underranked here -- I realize he wasn't particularly likable, but he may have the most impressive resume of any of these guys. Sub 4 mile, two-time Dream Mile champion, 8:29 HSR, two-time FLN champion, the list goes on. And he ended up graduating early, so he actually wasn't a year older than his graduating class.

Additionally, Ritz's resume > Webb's. IMO Webb just wasn't versatile enough -- he was a miler, plain and simple. Regardless, Verzbicas had a more impressive high school career than both of them.

It's refreshing to see Fisher's joy of racing versus chasing the clock? Pre must be rolling over in his grave having read that... Anyone on this message board will tell you how much more refreshing and honorable it is to see a runner going after a time/record even if he or she dies in the process, not any of this sit and kick bullshit you get out championship races nowadays. The sport needs another athlete with an attitude that Pre had, no matter what race they give it their all from start to finish.

And if you're really including how Fisher conducts himself in front of a camera which is so out of range of what constitutes an A-T HS runner then Lukas would be ranked ahead of everyone because of his range of athleticism having won triathlon and duathlon junior worlds (3 totally different sports in1) before enrolling at Oregon.

DeliciousDried wrote:

It's refreshing to see Fisher's joy of racing versus chasing the clock? Pre must be rolling over in his grave having read that... Anyone on this message board will tell you how much more refreshing and honorable it is to see a runner going after a time/record even if he or she dies in the process, not any of this sit and kick bullshit you get out championship races nowadays. The sport needs another athlete with an attitude that Pre had, no matter what race they give it their all from start to finish.

I'm on this board and I like a guy that focuses on what the sport is about - winning races. To say that's not honorable is evidence that you need to change sports.

To: DeliciousDried

As my name implies... so should you 'just have fun with it'

I did state that my summary of Fisher had some emotion involved. All in all though I did stay on topic and provided reasoning. The way he conducts himself is likeable. You should emulate this 18 year old as your emotion seems rather negative.

I believe racing (in the purest form) is about who is the victor. But that is another topic.

Why don't you channel your energy to putting together a thoughtful list of your top 10, save the swearing for someplace else, and accompany your list of names with reasons as to why.

Perhaps Pre is your #1 for the reason you state. Who else makes your top 10 and why?

3) Webb. Due to his HS mile time perhaps being unbeatable. Granted, Webb didn't have the same range as many that I rank below him but his mile time will stand the test of time.

Is this a joke?

Webb ran 47r-1:47.74-3:53-8:45i on a flat track in his only attempt.

Sometimes we forget how good people are, and sometimes we speculate too much, but Webb could* have obliterated the 2M record as well but the mile meant more. Additionally, the only person he lost to in XC was a guy that finished 3rd at WJXC.

So 47r-XC...Not one other person has Webb's range. Being able to run a mile and a 5k does not constitute range.

I'd say a very accomplished soccer player/champion distance runner is a better ATHLETE than a triathlete/distance runner combo. Remember what being ATHLETIC really means.But yes, Lukas was a very well-trained endurance athlete from a young age.

DeliciousDried wrote:

And if you're really including how Fisher conducts himself in front of a camera which is so out of range of what constitutes an A-T HS runner then Lukas would be ranked ahead of everyone because of his range of athleticism having won triathlon and duathlon junior worlds (3 totally different sports in1) before enrolling at Oregon.

having done cycling, swimming and a little soccer I have reached the conclusion that cycling and swimming is much tougher than soccer!

rethink dat wrote:

I'd say a very accomplished soccer player/champion distance runner is a better ATHLETE than a triathlete/distance runner combo. Remember what being ATHLETIC really means.

I hear Marty Liquori was a very accomplished musician in high school.