Josh Rohatinsky's Thoughts on Salazar: "Galens progression from 2006-2012 was highly suspicious to me."

At least he's consistent wrote:

if Nike wanted to flood the boards with deniers, it could afford to do much better...

[/quote]

Skuj wrote:

So, Nike wants to flood these boards with deniers?

And I'm the delusional one?

See? You don't even know what the word "if" means.

You're not so much delusional, I figure, as extremely dishonest. On top of that, not very bright. Genuine mental illness is actually pretty far down the list of reason you make little sense.

The piece didn't seem to be oriented towards "revealing wrongdoing". Rather, it's more of a, "I was there, and here's what I saw: I saw things consistent with what other witnesses are saying. I'm going to put my name out there publicly. I'm going to talk about my feelings and intuitions about the whole NOP situation as I saw it." He doesn't need photos of medical reports, or canisters of prescription drugs w/ Salazar's handwriting, or stories of shipments of androgels (w/ receipts), for his input to be worthwhile.

Your screaming that there's NO EVIDENCE is kind of off the point. Rohatinsky is actually adding strength to the witnesses who HAVE EVIDENCE, by backing up their stories publicly. Adding credibility to a stream of similar testimony from different sources, from different eras, from different pharmacological angles (TUEs, Cytomel, Androgel, Testosterone, '90s, '00s, '10s...) is arguably just as important as some piece of physical evidence.

Well, yes and no. Bigger in some ways, yes. Not as big in others. I kind of agree with you that what's gone on in Kenya may end up looking worse. Kenya and Iten may end up looking more like the TdFrance, while what's gone on in Portland is like... I don't know, maybe more like a kind of messed up cult of power, secrecy, and "good intentions" of beating the bad guys who dope? I only say that because so many people who were involved with AlSal/NOP have such strong feelings of like guilt and regret and "phew, I'm glad I got outta there, but what was I thinking being involved in that?"

The geographical location of these "investigations of gray areas" definitely does matter. The NOP story has so much storyline to it: Salazar's history, Nike, UK/Farah, Portland/Beaverton/Eugene/UO Ducks, and of course Rupp. They're both big stories for different reasons.

Well, again I'm going to quote from the piece:

"5. GALENS PROGRESS. Galen was improving during my time with the group and began making World Championship teams and so forth. He obviously didnt peak until a few years after I left, when he took silver in London in the 10k. I have to admit, watching that race live was surreal to me. Seeing someone I had trained with consistently for two years not too long before - and beaten several times in races in the years prior to that in college - push through that last lap and accelerate on the homestretch to beat the likes of the Bekele brothers was incredible. And when I say incredible I mean it in the literal sense of the word. How does that amount of progress happen in that short of a time frame? Supporters always point to hard work, but let me break it to you we all worked our butts off. It reminds me of the Lance Armstrong commercial, What Am I On? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIl5RxhLZ5U). As everyone knew long before he got busted, that pathetic liar was on a lot more than his bike. Alberto himself said back around the year 2000 that he believes its near impossible to medal in a distance event clean. Did the sport get any cleaner from 2000-2012 to make that possible? No. Galens progression from 2006-2012 was highly suspicious to me, particularly since I spent two of those six years with him. Again, he worked his butt off and I can attest to that but even with that, the progression just doesnt add up to me."

How is that not pointing to wrongdoing?

I live in a world where, if you are going to go public with your real name (haha, letsrun) and say this kind of thing about another named person, you better damn well have something concrete to back that up....not conjecture, or suspicion, or a Lance Armstrong commercial for comparison.

The 2006-2012 rise of Rupp is probably the most unsuspicious rise in track history. I have marvelled for years about how truly steady and gradual it is. But people are going to "see" what they want to see.

I took his post to basically say: there are many formerly at NOP who believe that Galen's improved speed in closing a 10000 is the result of per use but we are not suggesting anyone else at NOP did more than get a TUE. They suspect it because if the unique close relationship of Salzar' and Rupp and Salazar's focus on medicine. Mo and Ritz improved a lot but no one has anything to say about them because they were more like 'athletes' than 'sons'.

Is that an overstatement? He is basically saying he does not believe Galen had the talent to outsprint Kenyans and Ethiopians in a 27:30 Olympic10000 or to run a 26:48 or. 26:44.

The counterargument on the Olympics is that Galen was fortunate in who he ran against that year. The Ethiopians were not at their best (they ran a lot of 10000s that year to qualify and Bekele was past his prime). The Kenyans had no kickers and Kiprop was hurt. Plus Tadesse was past his prime too. Still it was a great performance.

Kara said something similar. she could not believe how well Galen did weeks after the WC in 2011 without cheating. Of course, Bekele dropped out of world's and came back to beat Rupp and a Kenyan in that race but he is Bekele. And he is expected to be great.

Yeah, she did the same thing. ie Talk publicly about suspicions, with ZERO evidence, only anecdotal stuff like a conversation weeks earlier about how tired Rupp was feeling. How many times have we runners done really well after a period where we felt like shit? Is it possible that Rupp took it easy for a while then did that 26:48? Oh no...it must be drugs!! Can't believe how many Brutuses there are in USA Track. I used to admire the Gouchers. But you CANNOT publicly crucify someone unless you are sure about it.

Roelants wrote:

Kara said something similar. she could not believe how well Galen did weeks after the WC in 2011 without cheating. Of course, Bekele dropped out of world's and came back to beat Rupp and a Kenyan in that race but he is Bekele. And he is expected to be great.

Skuj wrote:

I used to admire the Gouchers. But you CANNOT publicly crucify someone unless you are sure about it.

I know you're not a Nike shill, just a consistently confused and fact-resistant, argumentative water-head. But do you somehow get paid by the letter to misuse words on purpose? If you think that Kara "crucfied" Galen Rupp by any stretch in the BBC piece, you cannot possibly have watched it with the volume on.

What is a normal Mile-5k-10k progression supposed to look like?

Doesn't everyone have 1 or 2 huge breakout years in their lifetime?

There's tons of other people who make crazy progressions to get where they are today

So why is he so suspicious about his 2006-2012 progression?

Seb Coe dropped his time from 3:57 to 3:49.

[quote]Skuj wrote:

Yeah, she did the same thing. ie Talk publicly about suspicions, with ZERO evidence, only anecdotal stuff like a conversation weeks earlier about how tired Rupp was feeling. How many times have we runners done really well after a period where we felt like shit? Is it possible that Rupp took it easy for a while then did that 26:48? Oh no...it must be drugs!!

Can't believe how many Brutuses there are in USA Track. I used to admire the Gouchers. But you CANNOT publicly crucify someone unless you are sure about it.

Of course you can. It's called free speech and if you're genuinely suspicious wbout some sort of wrongdoing you have every right to comment. There's going to be investigations into all of these allegations. If NOP and Alberto are clean the investigation will turn up nothing. If they're dirty the people giving their opinions are doing the sport a service.

If you can look at 7-8, whatever, NOP athletes telling the same stories, if you can see Farah skip out on a meet that would have paid him $115,000 to zoom back to Oregon to huddle with his coach and not be suspicious, and being suspicious is not the same as being certain, well, good for you. and if you have a tooth fall out soon don't forget to put it under your pillow.

Sudden Impact wrote:

Skuj wrote:

NO!!!

He improved 5sec over 3 years.

Are we really having this conversation?

What we're his PRS in 2011?

What were they in 2012?

Give up yet?

By that logic, you should be saying that Rupp improved by 5 sec over 1 HOUR!!!!! In fact, with your logic, that would be the case (improved X amount in a matter of MINUTES or HOURS) for everybody who ever set a new PR.

For an average Joe hobby jogger, even I personally know that when I made a big jump in a particular PR (by your definition) there was a reason it took me that long to set the PR, and the entire training time (3 years, in this case) contributed to the improvement.

Logically wrote:

if you can see Farah skip out on a meet that would have paid him $115,000 to zoom back to Oregon to huddle with his coach and not be suspicious, and being suspicious is not the same as being certain, well, good for you. and if you have a tooth fall out soon don't forget to put it under your pillow.

Farah flew back to cover his tracks. His sensitive "paperwork" is at his home in the care of the wife he sees part-time. After making sure everything --papers-- were in the proper place he suddenly felt better. The paperwork will never be found because it no longer physically exists.

Exactly. A guy isn't supposed to improve substantially from age 20 to 26? Isn't that the expectation rather than the exception?

I don't know anybody or anything and just watch races. I think the accusations should be taken seriously but there needs to be skepticism as well. Based on what I had read before,:

1. If you would have asked me weeks ago if Rupp took asthma meds, I would have said yes. He wore the mask everyone ridiculed.

2. If you asked me if he got an IV when the need may have been iffy, I would say I would not be surprised.

3.If you asked about thyroid meds, I would have said yes he takes them but so do others like Ryan Hall

4. If you asked me if people at NOP took lots of tests to look for conditions to be treated, I would have said yes.

5. If you asked me if Salzar's favorite runner was Rupp, I would have said yes.

6. If you asked me if Rupp was using testosterone, I would have said 'No, I have not heard of that.' The lab report is inconclusive, the androgel raises suspicion. The Alex Salazar story, if true, raises suspicion and the 'mike' story does the same. It is too bad the physician has passed. I wishthis came up when he could be interviewed.

12 people raising concerns says something but it's not dispositive. Others have had great days and medaled (Ritz, Kara) or run fast ((Hall, Ritz, Solinsky) without suspicion. So improvement only goes so far. I am a bit surprised that only Galen is singled out as an athlete u de suspricion. I would like to hear if the Gouchers and jR think others cheated.

[quote]Logically wrote:

[quote]Skuj wrote:

Yeah, she did the same thing. ie Talk publicly about suspicions, with ZERO evidence, only anecdotal stuff like a conversation weeks earlier about how tired Rupp was feeling. How many times have we runners done really well after a period where we felt like shit? Is it possible that Rupp took it easy for a while then did that 26:48? Oh no...it must be drugs!! Can't believe how many Brutuses there are in USA Track. I used to admire the Gouchers. But you CANNOT publicly crucify someone unless

Roelants wrote:

I am a bit surprised that only Galen is singled out as an athlete u de suspricion.

NOP is a pyramid scheme. Rupp is at the top. Farah is #1-. Those at the top are the most trusted soldiers. Almost everyone else in the group is there to provide deflection.

I watched her cast huge doubt on the legality of Rupp's performances. Did we watch the same program? What if Rupp has done no wrong? (Extremely likely imho.) What do the Gouchers and Rohatinskys say then? "Um, ooops, sorry for casting doubt upon you in the world media."?? And all of the famous athletes (Willis etc) who applauded these people for showing up on tv and the press with their beliefs and doubts? What will they say?A guy works his ass off for years, gets the AR, gets Oly silver, and now he is dragged through mud because of.....what exactly? Where is the proof that wrongdoing happened here? Still not seeing it.

Spuj wrote:

Skuj wrote:

I used to admire the Gouchers. But you CANNOT publicly crucify someone unless you are sure about it.

I know you're not a Nike shill, just a consistently confused and fact-resistant, argumentative water-head. But do you somehow get paid by the letter to misuse words on purpose? If you think that Kara "crucfied" Galen Rupp by any stretch in the BBC piece, you cannot possibly have watched it with the volume on.

Skuj wrote:

I watched her cast huge doubt on the legality of Rupp's performances. Did we watch the same program?

You obviously didn't watch the same program. Maybe you watch it weaning your NOP-issued rose-colored Rupp-goggles.

Skuj wrote:

I live in a world where, if you are going to go public with your real name (haha, letsrun) and say this kind of thing about another named person, you better damn well have something concrete to back that up....not conjecture, or suspicion, or a Lance Armstrong commercial for comparison..

This just posted on Buzzfeed: Lance sanction lifted. Not enough evidence.

Ok, please specify exactly what would be sufficient proof of NOP/Al Sal running a doping-like program... That hasn't already been published.

There is no proof A Duck will accept. Skuj is a top soldier in A Duck's flock. Ergo, full confessions by Rupp and Farah are not sufficient proof.

Skuj wrote:

The 2006-2012 rise of Rupp is probably the most unsuspicious rise in track history. I have marvelled for years about how truly steady and gradual it is. But people are going to "see" what they want to see.

What are you talking about? Most people don't gradual rise from "having no kick finishing 5th in races" to winning all the time.

The way it worked when I coached was you'd get a good sophomore, he'd finish 5th and think, "Wow I'll win in 2 years." "No you won't, some 3 x FL champ super talented stuf will come in and crush you."

Haile G- born champ.

Same thing with Kejelcha etc.

Please tell me who has developed into a global force in recent years on the track? I can only think of MO and Galenin the long distances.

Rupp ran in the 1330s in 2004. He didn't break 13:30 until 2009. He ran 1258 in 2012.

if I was salazar, I' might argue against your point. I"d say, "Hey if he was doping in HS, his progression makes no sense. He wasn't a world beater until senior year."