LetsRun sleuths do it again! Abdalaati Iguider's 3.32.88 2015 World Leading 1500m was run from the wrong start line!

Also worth noting (not sure if anyone mentioned this), the rabbit crosses 300m in under 40 seconds, but he covers the first quarter in 56.17, meaning he would have had to slow down to ~4:20 mile pace for that 100m stretch between the finish and start line, only to accelerate HARD to keep them on ~58 second per quarter pace (what they ran for lap 2).

Not a chance that happened as you can tell just by looking at them that they A) did not slow dramatically between 300m and 400m, and B) did not speed up dramatically afterward.

malmo wrote:

Sure the break line would extend to then inner lane. go to any track and take a look.

By 'any track', are you referring to those marked in accordance with the IAAF Facilities Manual (www.iaaf.org/download/download?filename=90af96aa-3d93-4e8f-a295-40c0c971c20f.pdf&urlslug=IAAF%20Track%20and%20Field%20Facilities%20Manual%202008%20Edition%20-%20Marking%20Plan%20400m%20Standard%20Track) that clearly show the break line does NOT extend through lane 1?

(And for what it's worth, the original line they are standing behind is just before the markings for the 2nd SC hurdle, which also happens to match where the IAAF doc has it just after the 1500m start line.)

Um, yeah wrote:

malmo wrote:

Sure the break line would extend to then inner lane. go to any track and take a look.

By 'any track', are you referring to those marked in accordance with the IAAF Facilities Manual (www.iaaf.org/download/download?filename=90af96aa-3d93-4e8f-a295-40c0c971c20f.pdf&urlslug=IAAF%20Track%20and%20Field%20Facilities%20Manual%202008%20Edition%20-%20Marking%20Plan%20400m%20Standard%20Track) that clearly show the break line does NOT extend through lane 1?

(And for what it's worth, the original line they are standing behind is just before the markings for the 2nd SC hurdle, which also happens to match where the IAAF doc has it just after the 1500m start line.)

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? That IAAF document isn't the final word on track markings. If you look, the break line in that pdf goes all the way down to the inside lane, that doesn't mean it is not permissable to cross into the inside lane does it?

Second point. There is no such thing as a defined point for steeplechase barriers, only that the 5 barriers be spaced equally on each lap. That pdf is for illustrative purposes, not for precise placement of the barriers. Each track will differ, and will have barriers spaced at different points depending on the positioning of the water barrier; inside/outside WJ, what is the approach layout, and actual WJ positioning. .

The track in question is marked correctly, they started the 1500m at the break line.

malmo wrote:

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? That IAAF document isn't the final word on track markings. If you look, the break line in that pdf goes all the way down to the inside lane, that doesn't mean it is not permissable to cross into the inside lane does it?

Second point. There is no such thing as a defined point for steeplechase barriers, only that the 5 barriers be spaced equally on each lap. That pdf is for illustrative purposes, not for precise placement of the barriers. Each track will differ, and will have barriers spaced at different points depending on the positioning of the water barrier; inside/outside WJ, what is the approach layout, and actual WJ positioning. .

The track in question is marked correctly, they started the 1500m at the break line.

Ultimately we're splitting hairs as we agree the race did not start at the 1500m start line.

With respect to the break line, you previously suggested to have a look at 'any track' to see that it is painted through lane 1.

This is not standard practice either according to the IAAF or the way most tracks are actually painted.

The point of the break line is to indicate where runners are allowed to cut in to lane 1. If you are already in lanes 1, then such a stipulation is meaningless and hence why the break line is not painted through lane 1.

The line, whatever non-1500m start line it was, did extend through lane 1 (and was also painted white instead of the standard green for the break line). If that really is the 800m break line, it is not representative of 'any track' that one might choose to compare it to so I'm still at a loss by your suggestion to go to 'any track' to have a look.

I'm aware that SC barrier placement is not precise. It was simply another data point supporting the fact that they were originally lined up at the 1500m start line and then moved forward to start at some to-be-defined line.

The main confirming facts are the positioning of the 300m start stagger lines, which clearly show the line they started at was short from the true 1500m start line.

Here is the correct start. I've circled the mid passing zone (300m) in red, which, in the first lane, is the 1500m start.

Hers is the incorrect start. I've circled the hooked lines, the beginning of the passing lanes (310m) in yellow.

Just have to say I am super impressed by Deanouk for having noticed this.

Major Kudos!

Ha What? wrote:

No lines seen on track and measure it with google. Yep, makes sense.

Learn to read. All you need is the S/F line and the edge of the HJ area, both of which are clear in the video. Gmap pedometer is very accurate, measure a track with it and see for yourself.

The HJ area edge is at most 297m from the finish, putting the 2nd waterfall at most 290m away.

Joe or Something Else wrote:

Just have to say I am super impressed by Deanouk for having noticed this.

Major Kudos!

Cheers. I shouldn't be such a geek! Lol.

I take stats of as many fast or important 800 and 1500 races as I can, and knew straight away when looking at 100m splits that it was not the right line.

I'm not sure what the line is that they actually started from, but know that the average time between the real 1500 start line and the one they did start from was about 1.2/1.3 secs. That means it was between 8 and 10m beyond the proper start. So the race could have been somewhere between 1490 and 1492m. Iguider's 3:32.88 is only actually worth c. 3:34.0 - 3:34.2.

It's nice to see that the owner's of LetsRun have made this a story on their homepage, although they only looked at it after Nick Willis tweeted about it.

Same thing on T&FN, where I posted after here. No one was interested or responded for about 5 days.

Hope the IAAF do the right thing, admit it was a mistake and don't allow the time to stand, which is a shame for Iguider, as it's not his fault!

Great work Deanouk - have had confirmation that the results will be cancelled as the meet promoter has realised that they did get the start line incorrect for both the Men's and Women's races. They are saying 7m short as they started from the start line for the steeplechase. As I said earlier, it looks like the track as been remarked this year, so it's understandable that an error like this can happen.

Mistakes happen and it's great to see them taking responsibility. The meet director Laurent as sent a personal apology letter to each athlete in the race.

Case closed.

Great!

Thanks for letting us know so promptly. I think I might join Scotland Yard; I could do with a career change. Lol.

Just goes to show that even in today's world of high technology, human error can still take place at quite a high level. It does make me wonder if this has happened before, perhaps where there is no video evidence to analyse!?

The Women's Chinese 1500 WR anyone?

Thanks again.

Dean

Deanouk wrote:

Joe or Something Else wrote:

Just have to say I am super impressed by Deanouk for having noticed this.

Major Kudos!

It's nice to see that the owner's of LetsRun have made this a story on their homepage, although they only looked at it after Nick Willis tweeted about it.

Same thing on T&FN, where I posted after here. No one was interested or responded for about 5 days.

Hope the IAAF do the right thing, admit it was a mistake and don't allow the time to stand, which is a shame for Iguider, as it's not his fault!

It looks like a number of folks on T&FNews board were interested enough to follow up by contacting IAAF. I just bumped the thread at a point where I expected some response from IAAF to hit the inboxes.

I suggest we all think about being interactive and alerting the "powers at LetsRun" to issues like this. I'm not sure if a query from a source that has been issued IAAF press credentials would have more impact that those initiated by the individual members of the T&FNews board-- but as the old saying goes

IT CAN NOT HURT TO TRY

Cheers for doing that wineturtle.

Tbh, I didn't expect it to get that far. Especially when some of the usual suspects on here implied I was wrong at the start.

Glad there will hopefully be the right outcome.

Good work to all those involved.

So Jager is the world leader now then?

Deanouk wrote:

Joe or Something Else wrote:

Just have to say I am super impressed by Deanouk for having noticed this.

Major Kudos!

Cheers for doing that wineturtle.

.

No praise for me. I did nothing but look to see if someone did the work for me.

Deanouk wrote:

I think I might join Scotland Yard; I could do with a career change. Lol.

Thanks again.

Dean

Dear Deano,

I think I could make good use of your expertise as I'm in a bit of a pickle at the moment, but I warn you you'll be getting thrown in at the deep end and NOP will throw you under the bus if you don't perform. It won't be as easy as this track miscalculation stuff, but the pays good plus a massive bonus if you can get me off, sadly, at the moment, I feel like I'm wading through treacle with thigh boots on.

Give me a bell,

Cheers

Al

nice catch. in watching the video, it looked, I am sure, to everyone like something was wrong when all the athletes were hanging out just behind the (correct) line and then are called up to the next line--some of them looking quite surprised and looking over at other athletes but following along. But you did the timing, always difficult, to establish it. I'm glad my man Jager now gets a momentary world leader.

Your link is irrelevant. The water jump is outside of the track.

IAAF WORLDS BEST YOUTH

2000 Metres Steeplechase

girls

6:11.83 Korahubsh Itaa 28 FEB 1992 ETH Bressanone 10 JUL 2009

boys

5:19.99 Meresa Kahsay 23 MAY 1996 ETH Donetsk 12 JUL 2013

perhaps videos of these races are available online