What has the world come to? ESPN to honor Caitlyn Jenner with the Arthur Ashes courage award.

Call me Caitlyn wrote:

ESPN is spot on. good for Jenner making a public statement for acceptance instead of a cowardly secretive disappearance from society that perpetuates the non acceptance of the sport world. Athletics has long been a place of intolerance and machismo. How many high school [L]GBT boys have been bullyed by the football clique? Why should he hide? If he can make money in the process why not? It's a free market. shes providing you more click bait, you should be glad. As far as raking in millions, view it as an emotional damage award for having to tolerate intolerant athletes at every level for so long.

So you think undergoing radical surgery to change your gender signifies "acceptance"?

Macd wrote:

i agree wrote:

I respect the people who have these urges but DON'T act on them.

To live a normal life, not put your kids through hell.

It's all about Bruce.

Lol. All so ignorant. You respect that they don't feel comfortable in their body? You respect that the suicide rate in this community is disproportionally high? DONT act on those feelings though... Just keep trucking? You kidding me?

Also, Caitlyn is getting old. How much longer would you want her to wait? It was pretty much now or never.

Her kids are old enough to understand this. Shit, Kim was in a sex tape and everyone in that family poses in nude photos from time to time.

What a joke.

yeah, good thing making the switch cuts down on that suicide rate, huh? (NOT)

asscinating that you people get belligerent at the idea that people born straight can become gay and that gay people can turn straight, yet demand we acknowledge that people born boys can somehow become girls..

And I thought it was sexist to assign stereotypes to females like being a woman means feeling feminine, wanting to wear frilly girl clothes & makeup, etc?

the whole 'community' is so intellectually shallow and disingenuous, it's comically sad..

Please, hating the opinions of straight white males again...

Get this - Jenner IS a straight white (and very rich) male!!!

And we're not talking about the rare intersex people - he is 100% physically male and thinks he is a female. Fake boobs don't make one a female, and if he were female already he wouldn't need them. It would make more sense to change the mental side of things rather than the physical, but we don't. Do you know WHY so many transsexuals regret their 'operation' or become suicidal? Because rather than treat this mental illness, we coddle them and tell them to act on their feelings and get an expensive, dangerous treatment to 'be themselves' (do you not see the irony yet?).

While I recognize a rich white guy has the right to spend his hard-earned money on whatever cosmetic treatment (and will earn him more money on his next reality show), I am NOT going to support and cheer for what I think is delusional.

Great post Fightfor15.

The agony of all of this, especially the overwhelmingly insensitive reactions, is that none of us truly know. Yes, Jenner has been a dwelling in the limelight, has been involved in the deaths of others. I don't particularly like her. I didn't like her when she was a him.

But, I don't know Jenner. And how can any of you bashing her claim that knowledge for yourself? The key to all of this is empathy, practiced to the highest degree, something I struggle with mightily. Too readily on internet forums do we bash others for things we assume. It's painful to read. It was painful to read your post, Rojo. You could have explained your grievances in a more thought-out, graceful way, but instead you came across as callous and shallow.

I don't know why Jenner did what she did, but I imagine it was a difficult, painful process, and, at the very least, I can respect that, and I can give credence and respect to her new identity, even if I don't necessarily like her as a person. That's what we all should do - with everybody. Give the respect first, and then treat all things - the athletes we love & hate, the sports we adore - from that standpoint. I love criticism, I love arguments, but I don't love senseless bashing. And I really don't love people claiming to know something they can't impossibly know.

I don't know if I agree with ESPN giving Jenner the award. I honestly don't know if I care. But I imagine that what she did took courage, even if it took place in the limelight, perhaps because it took place in the limelight. Are there more deserving people who deserve this award, who might never become known to a larger audience out in the vast world without the award? Yes, definitely. So many. And that is a shame. But Rojo, your comments were pretty shameful. They really were. I don't know if I'd ever want to talk with you face to face, because I put out a cigarette in your eye, even after trying to empathize with you.

Espn is the company that deifies the cheater Jimmy Valvona, so I don't expect too much more from them with this award.

Wow. I must say I am pretty surprised Rojo posted under his own name.

Caitlyn Jenner is doing a lot for public acceptance for transgender people and people confused of their gender.

I had thought about the steroid issue. Bruce could talk about how he thinks he's a woman,but I'd love to hear him talk about steroid usage in the 1970s. A lot of rumors of him being juiced.

And one thing I am a bit confused with the transgender thing is all the plastic surgery aspect. A poster above criticized society for people talking about Caitlyn's looks, but this whole thing seems to be about changing his look to match who he feels he is in his head. It has to be about looks. Bruce could easily keep being Bruce and say I'm a woman in a man's body, but he is choosing to have radical plastic surgery and take tons of hormones to be someone physically he is/was not. So how is it then wrong to talk about his looks?

The plastic surgery/hormone part is the part where I struggle with in terms of the courageous award. People say, "he is just being who he is" yet he is not, he is radically altering his body via surgery and hormones. A better way of putting it might be to say, "he's being whoever he wants to be" and encouraging us all to do that and maybe that is the courageous part.

Before when Bruce was a male people mocked him for his bad plastic surgery. Now he's upping that by a factor of ten and that gets him the courage award? Now maybe we shouldn't mock Bruce's poor previous plastic surgery or the woman who and goes and gets breast implants in the first place, but altering his physical appearance is all about looks. But if Bruce still was Bruce and just wore woman's clothes I think that look is harder for a lot of people to accept so once again the looks are important, but Bruce is showing that with his decision on plastic surgery.

Bruce has no doubt done a ton for transgender people as people fear what they don't know. Maybe we'll do a Q&A with Joanna Harper. She's an LRCer who went from being a male to a a female and has given me a lot of perspective on these issues and helped us with Caster Semenya stuff.

If you had told me Bruce would become a woman before he'd admit to steroid usage ten years ago I would have looked at you like you are crazy.

Anyone who thinks that ESPN cares about anything other than money is delusional. They now represent 33% of ABC/Disney's annual revenue. They went from some "WTF is that company?" to a mega brand.

To boost ratings and get away from repeat SportsCenter shows and airing niche sports (anyone remember the Global Wrestling Federation???), they created original programing to capture viewers (PTI, Around the Horn, Playmakers, etc...). They then began to obsess over athletes to draw in viewers (Tebow, Lebron, Lance, etc...). Now they are doing whatever they can to stay in pop culture and the mainstream as rival sports networks appear.

Caitlin Jenner is the latest buzz topic. The show is going to be on ABC this year. ESPN has confirmed that they are ratings and money whores. To those out there who see Jenner's transformation as a sign of hope for those too afraid - hey - I agree with you. He is making the transformation seem less "shocking". BUT - the Arthur Ashe award - well let's look at the definition of it on ESPN:

FROM ESPN: The Ashe Award is one of the most prestigious in sports. Recipients reflect the spirit of Arthur Ashe, possessing strength in the face of adversity, courage in the face of peril and the willingness to stand up for their beliefs no matter what the cost. The award is inspired by the life that Ashe lived, using his fame and stature to advocate for human rights, although, at the time, those positions may have been unpopular and were often controversial. From speaking out against apartheid in South Africa to revealing to the world his struggle with AIDS, Ashe never backed away from a difficult issue, even though doing so would have been easier. Winners of the Ashe Award strive to carry on Ashe's legacy in their own lives - - inspired by those who do so each day. "

Past Winners:

1993 Jim Valvano (Award Video and Speech)

1994 Steve Palermo

1995 Howard Cosell

1996 Loretta Claiborne

1997 Muhammad Ali

1998 Dean Smith

1999 Billie Jean King

2000 Dave Sanders (posthumously)

2001 Cathy Freeman

2002 Todd Beamer, Mark Bingham, Tom Burnett, and Jeremy Glick (posthumously)[1]

2003 Pat Tillman and Kevin Tillman[2]

2004 George Weah[3][4]

2005 Emmanuel Ofosu Yeboah and Jim MacLaren

2006 Roia Ahmad and Shamila Kohestani

2007 Trevor Ringland and David Cullen from Peace Players International

2008 Tommie Smith and John Carlos

2009 Nelson Mandela

2010 Family of Ed Thomas

2011 Dewey Bozella

2012 Pat Summitt (Award Video and Speech)

2013 Robin Roberts

2014 Michael Sam

I look at the description, the list of prior winners, and think to myself - this screams of a ratings grab. I don't know if what Jenner is doing is this major accomplishment in the face of serious adversity compared to the prior winners. These are just my opinions, but I feel that the award could and should go to someone more deserving. Names have already been thrown around on the internet and on this thread.

And here are the prior ratings for the broadcast. The last link has a chart going back to the origin of the awards. I've never actually watched the show because I just don't care. The show itself is about bringing in buzzworthy athletes. Example for us runners - Dean Karnazes as the "best outdoor athlete" that one year everyone couldn't stop talking about him. It's all a ratings grab. Pure and simple.

2014 ratings (poor ratings, down from 2013, beaten by Family Guy reruns):

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2014/07/17/wednesday-cable-ratings-duck-dynasty-tops-night-teen-mom-espy-awards-suits-more/283572/

2013 ratings (again ... very poor and down from 2012):

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2013/07/18/wednesday-cable-ratings-the-espy-awards-here-comes-honey-boo-boo-premiere-win-night-royal-pains-deal-with-it-the-challenge-rivals-ii-more/192520/

2012 (SLIGHT bounce back but not much) -

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2012/07/12/wednesday-cable-ratings-espy-awards-win-night-royal-pains-dallas-necessary-roughness-baby-daddy-melissa-joey-more/141312/

2011 (worst ratings EVER) -

http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2011/07/espy-awards-hits-lowest-level-in-over-a-decade/

wejo wrote:

Wow. I must say I am pretty surprised Rojo posted under his own name.

Caitlyn Jenner is doing a lot for public acceptance for transgender people and people confused of their gender.

Bruce has no doubt done a ton for transgender people as people fear what they don't know. Maybe we'll do a Q&A with Joanna Harper. She's an LRCer who went from being a male to a a female and has given me a lot of perspective on these issues and helped us with Caster Semenya stuff.

Thanks Wejo

I too,am not happy with the reality TV aspect of Caitlyn's transition, and If ESPN wanted to give the award to a trans woman athlete who showed courage, then MMA fighter Fallon Fox would be my choice.

But I also know a trans woman who was rejected by her father until Caitlyn went public. This father now says that if it is OK for the world's greatest athlete to be trans then it is OK for my child. So, yes, Jenner is doing much good.

BTW the incidence of 'trans regret' is very low and the suicide rate does drop dramatically after successful transition.

The name above should be Tgirl. Damn IPad

Seriously Rojo wrote:

Rojo: Letsrun.com is a place of intolerance. You can't post a thing, seriously or not, that doesn't get a number of offensive comments back. That's okay I guess, it comes with the territory of anonymous posts. The good comes with the bad. So when I saw the title of your post on the front page, I wasn't surprised. I was surprised to find that this was YOUR post, that it was actually a letsrun owner posting this. I'm disappointed in you. You can say what you want about the commercial aspect of it, I get that, but to say that this doesn't take courage? Please. You should go out, find a stranger, and see if you can muster the courage to say "I'm a woman" or even "I'm gay." Bet you can't do that, let alone do it in front of the entire world.

+1

How is this not a mental disorder that is being treated in the worst way by using cosmetic surgery and hormonal therapy to disfigure a very sick person?

For depression, we do not recommend people accept who they are and jump off bridges. We try to counsel them and change their thoughts. We then resort to medicine to attempt to reduce chemical imbalances. We have, perhaps incorrectly, tried to prevent these people from going to the extreme of what their illness calls them to do - quit living. Should we start accepting suicide as a normal aspect of life that is not disordered?

For anorexics, we do not tell these people to accept their body-image. We note the obvious delusion associated with body dysmorphia and the potentially severe impacts to that persons health. We try to treat it through the appropriate medical and nutritional counseling. I have never seen anorexia accepted by any community, medical or otherwise, such that we did not try to prevent the inevitable long-term effect of death. Are we hatfeful for trying to prevent these people from harming themselves? Should we just allow anorexics to starve themselves to death so we do not offend them?

With transgenders, however, we do not see disorder? We do not see illness? These words are suddenly hateful. We are told to accept the person for their choices no matter how extreme they are and how absurd it is. The reality is that Jenner can never truly be a woman - there is no real transition to female, only a man playing a sad game of pretend. He cannot produce a child and he will never have the functional anatomy of a woman. Any changes to his mind and physiology that do take place are the result of exogenous hormones that his endocrine system will never produce.

The idea that he is now a woman is currently beyond my comprehension.

All that said, I'm not trying to be hateful or offensive. I am trying to understand this and it is very complicated.

Hoping to learn and understand more by expressing my ideas...

Twirl wrote:

Thanks Wejo

I too,am not happy with the reality TV aspect of Caitlyn's transition, and If ESPN wanted to give the award to a trans woman athlete who showed courage, then MMA fighter Fallon Fox would be my choice.

But I also know a trans woman who was rejected by her father until Caitlyn went public. This father now says that if it is OK for the world's greatest athlete to be trans then it is OK for my child. So, yes, Jenner is doing much good.

BTW the incidence of 'trans regret' is very low and the suicide rate does drop dramatically after successful transition.

Fallon Fox: A man who is dressed up as a woman and beats them unconscious - How is this courageous?

I just don't get it. In our attempts to be so fair to everyone we are being completely unfair to actual women in MMA by pretending this a fair fight. If anyone objects they are a hateful bigot?

Fallon Fox went through puberty as a man and now has breast implants and a weekly estrogen injection and puberty is undone? No, not one tiny bit.

I'm all for rational discourse but this is not even close to being rational.

wejo wrote:

Wow. I must say I am pretty surprised Rojo posted under his own name.

I guess this means you guys post under fake names at times.

I appreciate the counterperspective to your brother's initial post.

I think Rojo should win the Arthur Ashes courage award for publicly voicing his disapproval of this. It takes a lot to stand up against all the hate people have for others with different opinions.

another agree-er wrote:

I think the best thing we can do, we ones out here, is just as you are doing. Refuse to acknowledge it. It's him and he, not she and her. This is a man. Bruce Jenner. He is a man pretending to be a woman. Don't change your pronouns, folks, and reject the girl's name. A little kid in a superman costume is still a little kid.

Your lack of knowledge of the transgendered community is . . . well, not shocking. 6 billion people on earth, and you think they're all wired like you?

God, let's hope not.

Larry Dickman wrote:

another agree-er wrote:

I think the best thing we can do, we ones out here, is just as you are doing. Refuse to acknowledge it. It's him and he, not she and her. This is a man. Bruce Jenner. He is a man pretending to be a woman. Don't change your pronouns, folks, and reject the girl's name. A little kid in a superman costume is still a little kid.

Your lack of knowledge of the transgendered community is . . . well, not shocking. 6 billion people on earth, and you think they're all wired like you?

God, let's hope not.

You act like this topic is easy to understand and that knowledge of it is well communicated. You respond to a post you find intolerant with...well, intolerance. And that's what I actually do hate - people expect everyone to just accept something that is very far from intuitive and not question it or struggle with - you expect us just to accept it. How about transition management folks? And I mean cultural transition (pun not intended). If you want to act all righteous about your progressive views on transgenders, why not have a little tolerance for those of us who have different views and haven't fully grasped the topic yet?

Twirl wrote:

BTW the incidence of 'trans regret' is very low and the suicide rate does drop dramatically after successful transition.

Completely false:

Seriously Rojo wrote:

Rojo: Letsrun.com is a place of intolerance. You can't post a thing, seriously or not, that doesn't get a number of offensive comments back. That's okay I guess, it comes with the territory of anonymous posts. The good comes with the bad. So when I saw the title of your post on the front page, I wasn't surprised. I was surprised to find that this was YOUR post, that it was actually a letsrun owner posting this. I'm disappointed in you. You can say what you want about the commercial aspect of it, I get that, but to say that this doesn't take courage? Please. You should go out, find a stranger, and see if you can muster the courage to say "I'm a woman" or even "I'm gay." Bet you can't do that, let alone do it in front of the entire world.

Attention PC Police: Stating that a transsexual does not deserve an award DOES NOT EQUATE to intolerance.

Transsexuals are already tolerated. No one thinks they should be forcefully stopped from doing what they do, dumb as we may think it is. You're now asking that they are praised and celebrated by everyone, due to your upbringing where everyone received an award for participating tee ball.

I bet if it would land him a million dollar reality TV deal, rojo would have plenty of 'courage' to say he is a woman... the question is would he be that shameless.

Larry Dickman wrote:

another agree-er wrote:

I think the best thing we can do, we ones out here, is just as you are doing. Refuse to acknowledge it. It's him and he, not she and her. This is a man. Bruce Jenner. He is a man pretending to be a woman. Don't change your pronouns, folks, and reject the girl's name. A little kid in a superman costume is still a little kid.

Your lack of knowledge of the transgendered community is . . . well, not shocking. 6 billion people on earth, and you think they're all wired like you?

God, let's hope not.

Wild straw men accusations. The PC police's defense tactics disappoint me.

Not ONE person, in many threads, has answered what it means for a physically male person to 'identify as a woman,' or how it is any more valid than a 'physically white' person identifying as black, or as a different age, etc. Instead, we just get this crap.