She's a great businesswoman, I can definitely make that objective statement. However, as a runner who has lived and participated in races here for over 2 decades I can firmly state she was disconnected from the local running community and I certainly saw no added benefit from her leadership style and decisions. Please outline for me what she has done to help the average runner? I can list a bunch of bad things that happened under her leadership, whether or not you agree she's responsible for them.
- race prices increased dramatically
- race sizes increased dramatically
- pre and post race logistics became more complicated (have to get there much earlier, have to walk much longer at the finish to grab your stuff or exit the area)
- a lot more junk is being sold to runners at every opportunity
- daily NYRR ads in the inbox
- mandatory races and volunteering to get into the marathon (lottery chances used to be much higher). I stepped in to volunteer for my wife and they didn't need half of the people there. I also don't understand why they call it volunteering if you are forced to do it to help you qualify
- NYM qualifying times are ridiculously difficult to achieve now
I'll stop here but I'm sure others would happily add on
Mary Wittenberg Steps Down as President of New York Road Runners to Head Virgin Sport
Report Thread
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MarathonMind wrote:
extremely unfortunate, which led to the rise of NYC Runs, and the more reasonable entry fees NYRRC used to be known for.
I think this is only one side of the story. NYRR made a strategic move away from being a local runners club to being a national brand. It did leave the NYC-local runners without a home and that is an unfortunate by-product.
As a former New Yorker, I hadn't heard about NYC Runs. Just looked it up on line. Bravo! Glad to see some low-cost competition in NYC. Putting one foot in front the other in a road race shouldn't cost $40. Great job NYC Runs founders! -
UnhappyCustomer wrote:
- race prices increased dramatically
- race sizes increased dramatically
- a lot more junk is being sold to runners at every opportunity
- daily NYRR ads in the inbox
- mandatory races and volunteering
This is about profits, not running or bicycling. Those are all things that business-types LOVE.
I never understood volunteering for these for-profit events that throw a few quid at a charity after paying themselves. -
UnhappyCustomer wrote:
It's obvious the NYRR staff is going to be all over this thread to try to fight any negative comments
NYRR staff are responsible for half the negative posts. They abhor her. I'm sure there was a big cheer when they found out from letsrun that she'd gone. -
NYCRuns certainly filled a void in the NYC racing calendar. Their Riverside Wednesday series is $10 or all 8 for $60. Fantastic bargain. However, other 5Ks can run from $25-$40 (with another 10k up to $50 - day of race), so they are not all inexpensive. The HM are more, which is understandable due to added road closures, etc As someone else said, if you are at all competitive, there is a good chance you will be running alone. Hopefully that will change as more people run their races.
We live in a different time, security concerns are at the forefront. Unfortunately, we can't go back to the days of yore. Add to that the increase demand in 'spots', no wonder that over the last decade, the price of races has risen exponentially.
Running is still the least expensive participatory sport. Tennis? golf? Not even close. Team sports like baseball, football, basketball or soccer? Equipment, field permits, lessons, travel squads, etc. can run you big bucks. -
A nice thing about suburban races, is that even I can get an AG place, though I recently came 10th overall but only placed third on the 50-54 AG.
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LI Runner wrote:
NYCRuns certainly filled a void in the NYC racing calendar. Their Riverside Wednesday series is $10 or all 8 for $60. Fantastic bargain. However, other 5Ks can run from $25-$40 (with another 10k up to $50 - day of race), so they are not all inexpensive. The HM are more, which is understandable due to added road closures, etc As someone else said, if you are at all competitive, there is a good chance you will be running alone. Hopefully that will change as more people run their races.
We live in a different time, security concerns are at the forefront. Unfortunately, we can't go back to the days of yore. Add to that the increase demand in 'spots', no wonder that over the last decade, the price of races has risen exponentially.
Running is still the least expensive participatory sport. Tennis? golf? Not even close. Team sports like baseball, football, basketball or soccer? Equipment, field permits, lessons, travel squads, etc. can run you big bucks.
I agree. However, the majority of HMs run by NYCRUNS are along the Belt Parkway on the bike path. This requires zero road closures whatsoever. This concept of NYCRUNS being this "grassroots" organization that is trying to bring back the $5 5k is absurd.
Also, keep in mind, just because a race is posted on the NYCRUNS website, that doesn't mean they put it on or even have anything at all to do with it. -
Congrats, always nice to pick up some hardware. Although would gladly take a mid-pack finish for a nice 10-year PR which can only happen with people around to push you.
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LI Runner wrote:
Congrats, always nice to pick up some hardware. Although would gladly take a mid-pack finish for a nice 10-year PR which can only happen with people around to push you.
It was a 55 second lifetime PR as I went head to head with a cocky 25 year-old. -
I'm about to head over to tonight's NYCRuns 5k in Riverside Park - anyone else on this thread going to be there?
p.s. that series in fact IS put on by NYCRuns. -
A PR and hardware at your advanced age, Sweet!
(i'm in a similar AG)
Randy Oldman wrote:
LI Runner wrote:
Congrats, always nice to pick up some hardware. Although would gladly take a mid-pack finish for a nice 10-year PR which can only happen with people around to push you.
It was a 55 second lifetime PR as I went head to head with a cocky 25 year-old. -
UnhappyCustomer wrote:
She's a great businesswoman, I can definitely make that objective statement. However, as a runner who has lived and participated in races here for over 2 decades I can firmly state she was disconnected from the local running community and I certainly saw no added benefit from her leadership style and decisions. Please outline for me what she has done to help the average runner? I can list a bunch of bad things that happened under her leadership, whether or not you agree she's responsible for them.
- race prices increased dramatically
- race sizes increased dramatically
- pre and post race logistics became more complicated (have to get there much earlier, have to walk much longer at the finish to grab your stuff or exit the area)
- a lot more junk is being sold to runners at every opportunity
- daily NYRR ads in the inbox
- mandatory races and volunteering to get into the marathon (lottery chances used to be much higher). I stepped in to volunteer for my wife and they didn't need half of the people there. I also don't understand why they call it volunteering if you are forced to do it to help you qualify
- NYM qualifying times are ridiculously difficult to achieve now
I'll stop here but I'm sure others would happily add on
So essentially you want someone who isn't successful at their job to do it?
You want race sizes to not increase (Race sizes increasing cause more logistical issues) and for qualifying to be easier.
you do realize race prices are going up everywhere? The Graham 10k in a small town in Texas this week is $25/$30 depending on when you sign up.
The NY Mini I see is $30/40 bucks for NYRR members. Considering how much more expensive NY is than Texas that seems like a bargain. You can come to Graham and try and win the $150 first prize and have no competition or you can race the NY Mini next month.
I guess they could go back to having the marathon being loops in the park with $500 for first, but then you'd complain they don't pay enough prize money, but you complain also when they pay too much to some Kenyan right? -
Your question about success is idiotic. If you define success as promoting aspects that most dues paying members of the club don't care about, then, sure, we want someone not to be successful. Most members of the club don't care about youth programs and don't care about how many pros are flown in for the marathon. They want reasonably priced races that don't sell out months in advance that are enjoyable to do. NYRR has not been successful in that regard.
You clearly don't realize the ridiculousness of dramatically increasing the size of the marathon field while dramatically increasing the difficulty of qualifying. NYRR has basically said to its members either you pay us a lot of money and donate some of your time for the 9+1 or you run really fast if you want to do the only local marathon that is put on by your club that you pay dues to. How is that good?
Of course race prices are going up but example is comparing apples to oranges because the race prices for non-NYRR members is significantly higher than for members. You have to pay another $40 to be a member (no more 2-year or lifetime memberships) to get the "discounted" pricing otherwise you are looking at $33 (or $45 for the Mini).
Your marathon loop comment also is ridiculous. Most NYRR members do not care that the pro fields in the marathon cost millions of dollars to assemble and would much rather have that money used towards lowering the entrance costs for the masses. Is the marathon experience for the average runner or spectator any different in 2015 with deep and fast pro fields than in the 80s when the Salazar was winning against much smaller and slower pro fields? If you are in the race, it's irrelevant because you are dropped in the first 10 seconds of the race. If you are a spectator, there's no difference between seeing a bunch of guys whiz past at 2:10 pace or 2:05 pace. It's all a blur.
The bottom line is that the marathon is extremely hard and expensive to get into for NYRR's own members and that's not right. It never used to be like that but it's not going to change because NYRR made the decision years ago to sell out its own members in order to rake in much more money using spots that used to go to its members that now go to tour groups and charities that will pay thousands of dollars for the numbers. You may think that that is great but most dues paying NYRR members do not. -
I've known Wittenberg since 2000. For all you've seen see publicly from her, over the years I've been aware of many things she's done privately, far from the public eye, to help runners.
Not just fattening some pro's wallet (although NYRR ran a de facto affirmative action program for US runners once she took over) -- instead real non-financial assistance / favors for runners on or below the "fringe" of national caliber (no, not including me). Runners who could not possibly provide a quid pro quo.
Bottom line, she's been one of the "good" adminstrators in the sport.
We'll see what happens with her in the private sector.
In case some of you want to think of me as an "in Mary's pocket" toady, here's the full disclosure: The only "favor" she ever did for me was taking my wife and me to dinner once. That was almost 5 years ago; we have been essentially strangers since then. I have nothing to gain from MW, Virgin Sport, or NYRR. -
Would you like the NYRR to dispense with their elite fields at their big events?
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Mary instituted NYC Marathon Qualifying standards. The standards have become tighter but those standards didn't use to exist.
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http://www.outsideonline.com/1980406/why-richard-branson-would-hire-smartest-woman-running?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=facebookpost
some speculation on what Mary will be doing
Should be interesting - she seems to care about both grass roots/youth and elite - with Branson behind her it could be very good.
(of course sticks in the mud will commence mass grumbling at this point) -
The other poster's response was spot on. If you define success as bringing in a higher caliber pro field, building dependent relationships with all the local charities and creating a bunch of community youth programs then I absolutely agree she was beyond successful. However, as a local runner participating in the marathon and other races I don't care how many Kenyans or US olympians line up on the chalk. I also absolutely would love for the race to go down to a more manageable size of 20-25k. I guarantee you if just these two items were actioned NYRR could manage to decrease race registration fees significantly. If they got rid of their pet programs that would give them further savings. It's coming down to basic math most of the time. We're not talking about curing cancer or a fortune 500 super complex corporation with subsidiaries all over the world.
As a businesswoman, she's done great. She successful gauged the revenue and growth opportunity for the club and implemented changes accordingly. This sort of change is very familiar to me. I work at a large bank which was a partnership then went public. From the outside it always looks like a huge success (and it is for the shareholders and high ranking managers $), but it's a very different story for the stakeholders. Those who are around for the changes understand very clearly how they get screwed. -
Don't kid yourself bud, she's there because it's a high profile organization and she's being very well paid. I don't understand why everyone has such a problem admitting that money speaks louder than anything else. Keep drinking that cool aid.
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Attributing growth in NYRR events and NYC running in general to Mary Wittenberg is a correlation/causation fallacy. We can look at the numbers from USA running and see pretty clearly that growth is across the board, not just in NY. In NYC, the rise in running's popularity is better attributed to improved infrastructure including greenpaths, bicycle lanes, and expanded car-free hours in the park along with the same sort of demographic changes that have facilitated the growth in running nationally - increased female participation and retention of masters age runners. Credit for this can't be extended to MW or NYRR, which can't even lobby effectively to get the road lights fixed in Central Park. Seriously, for how many years were the street lights out on the 102nd street transverse (the site of the central park jogger's horrific gang-rape and mutilation.) And for how long will the lower loop on the east side south of 72nd remain dark?
With the increase in commercial sponsorship and corporate control over races, NYRR has also suffered a decline in financial transparency. We know Wittenberg receives an enormous salary and that the entire organization is bloated with an impressive degree of non-talent (which is not to disparage the talented slice of NYRR's staff.) Are they working for anyone other than themselves? Because we don't see the numbers and as poorly informed members we don't know what the true marketing value of selling race-sponsorship is, we don't have a particularly good idea as to whether the staff has even sold off our races for good value. In any case, what used to be events by-and-for members have become events at which members' mental real-estate is merchandised to a high bidder or allied business friend.
Case in point is the Brooklyn Half -- now the AirBNB half. The ass-ugly AirBNB logo appears no less than 4 times on the schwag shirt (which used to be a nicer v-neck but which has been cheapened this year) and the corporate logo will surely appear on the finishers medal. This certainly isn't done to support elite running - the prize money is nominal. And yet despite succumbing to a corporate branding exercise, the race is more expensive than ever $85 for non-members vs. (according to this thread, $11 less than a decade ago). Across 40,000 runners, it doesn't cost $20 or $40 or $55 (add sponsorship dollars) a head to pay for security, and street sweepers..... or if it really does, put up the numbers so we can see.
But you know what really pisses me off: its the insult to injury that NYRR's management chose to accept AirBNBs money at all. AirBNB is a business whose model is basically illegal throughout the entirety of New York City and which acts only to degrade the qualify of life for 99% of New Yorkers who comply with those laws. I'd be more excited about a summer run through a swamp sponsored by Mosquitoes.
