fartlekpas wrote:
So should the Seahawks title from 2014 have an asterisk? Or the Saints Super Title in 2010?
Sure, if that makes you feel better. But it's completely irrelevant, so go ahead and put an asterisk by every championship team until the league gets serious about PEDs.
The point is your star quarterback straight up lied about his involvement with the scandal.
The Plain Truth wrote:
"More probable than not" is hardly the language someone uses if they have any kind of proof of guilt.
Moreover, the text messages do make Brady look bad, but they in no way show that Brady ordered people to cheat by deflating balls below the limit. That is quite a leap.
Finally, Brady tore it up in the second half against the Colts and against Seattle, so claiming the inflation level of the balls impacted the outcome of the Baltimore game is ludicrous. Brady, like all QBs, has a personal preference on balls and apparently is a bit of a dick about it. Personal preference does not equal competitive advantage.
I'll tell you what is cheating: piping artificial crowd noise into your domed stadium when the opponent has the ball for TWO YEARS!! And what did the falcons get? A $350K fine and the loss of a 5th round draft choice?? Clearly preventing the opposing team from hearing their QB's audible calls is a competitive advantage. Yet no one seems to give a crap because the Falcons suck and they are not the Patriots. Can you imagine the outcry if the Patriots did that?
I laughed my ass off when the 49ers came back and killed the Foulclowns in the NFCCG a few years ago.
Hotlanta went from partying in their seats, to poopin in their seats.
themanontherun wrote:
From the way those texts read, Brady was playing most of the season with balls that were actually inflated three times more above his preference (around 16 PSI) than the deflated balls were found to be in the Indy game. Those ball boys don't sound like his biggest fan.
It's pretty clear Brady requested the balls to be deflated. Whether he asked them to be deflated below league minimum doesn't seem clear.
In regards to whether this constitutes cheating, I'm still undecided. It seems like the PSI is not as standardized in general as the NFL would have us believe. Did the ball-boys routinely inflate those game balls above 15 or 16 PSI in order to mess with Brady? Possible. If they didn't, then why are we believing anything else in those text messages? The two possibilities that I can see are that this falls more on the general jackassery of the two ball boys who messed with game balls beyond what was requested of them, or this falls into the category of casual text messages being taken as gospel truth. Neither of these seems particularly damning to me.
You're just making excuses for the Patriots.
Replace the word "damning," with "reliable," and you might have a point...
It doesn't make me feel better--it keeps folks like you honest. How about the Broncos violation of the salary cap from '96-98--the years that allowed them to build a team that won back to back super bowls? Asterisk that too.
I agree that (part of) the point is whether or not Brady lied--and he probably did to some degree, and should be penalized as such. And if your point is that Brady is human--I agree as well. He's human. Just like every other QB in the league. It's the overall trajectory of this whole situation and the implicit argument that you are making that I have a problem with. If this was the QB of an 8-8 team--this would barely be news. Instead folks like you (and sports media) are trying to tie the manipulation of one or two pounds of pressure in a ball to the quality of a players play and the significance of a team's success. It just doesn't fly. You can call him and the Pats cheaters but you need to (consistently) do the same of the Seahawks, any other player found to use PED's, and pretty much every "dominant" team that has ever existed. So when all is said and done who do you root for? Who is perfectly clean and worthy of respect?
Labeling the Pats cheaters becomes a diluted argument. People bring up the Tuck rule (which had nothing to do with Brady or the Pats except that it happened to be called into action during their game), Spygate (a previous poster already laid out the insignificance of what they were caught doing), and even the substitution during last year's playoff game against the Ravens (sneaky yes, but absolutely within the rules).
It's incredible to hear the NFL is considering a full year suspension. A baseball player found to be using a corked bat (which is an excellent comparison to a slightly deflated football--a willful manipulation of a equipment) usually gets a suspension of around 5% of a baseball season--which in terms of the football season equates to a little less than a single game.
By the way--Brady is not "my" star QB (my "star" QB is RG3 unfortunately, which is another issue for a different day).
fartlekpas wrote:
It doesn't make me feel better--it keeps folks like you honest. How about the Broncos violation of the salary cap from '96-98--the years that allowed them to build a team that won back to back super bowls? Asterisk that too.
I agree that (part of) the point is whether or not Brady lied--and he probably did to some degree, and should be penalized as such. And if your point is that Brady is human--I agree as well. He's human. Just like every other QB in the league. It's the overall trajectory of this whole situation and the implicit argument that you are making that I have a problem with. If this was the QB of an 8-8 team--this would barely be news. Instead folks like you (and sports media) are trying to tie the manipulation of one or two pounds of pressure in a ball to the quality of a players play and the significance of a team's success. It just doesn't fly. You can call him and the Pats cheaters but you need to (consistently) do the same of the Seahawks, any other player found to use PED's, and pretty much every "dominant" team that has ever existed. So when all is said and done who do you root for? Who is perfectly clean and worthy of respect?
Labeling the Pats cheaters becomes a diluted argument. People bring up the Tuck rule (which had nothing to do with Brady or the Pats except that it happened to be called into action during their game), Spygate (a previous poster already laid out the insignificance of what they were caught doing), and even the substitution during last year's playoff game against the Ravens (sneaky yes, but absolutely within the rules).
It's incredible to hear the NFL is considering a full year suspension. A baseball player found to be using a corked bat (which is an excellent comparison to a slightly deflated football--a willful manipulation of a equipment) usually gets a suspension of around 5% of a baseball season--which in terms of the football season equates to a little less than a single game.
By the way--Brady is not "my" star QB (my "star" QB is RG3 unfortunately, which is another issue for a different day).
This is the most sensible post on this entire thread. A lot of people speaking with misinformed opinions. Suspend him for the preseason to appease the ignorant and lets move on. Before one of the aforementioned ignorant people speak up...I am not a Pats fan either, I'm actually a Cowboys fan. We play the pats this year and I STILL am logical enough to not think this warrants any kind of real punishment. Trivial at best.
Here's the problem the NFL has. The report, most notably the 15 year old girls texting back and forth about Brady and the footballs (OMG! Spaz), never even suggests that Brady asked these men to break the rules. The findings suggest that Brady asked for low PSI balls. Does his request mean right at the legal limit? Did he request that these men break the rules? Clearly, Brady gives these guys a hard time about the PSI, but does he ask them to cheat? I am completely unsure how anyone, including a group of lawyers making millions, can make that jump from request to keep low PSI and a request to have the guys cheat. The NFL looks terrible here, although they have done nothing yet.
If the NFL cared about the balls why did it allow players to bring their own in 2009? Why did they never tell refs to record psi before games? Why did they not measure at halftime? Why didn't they punish Minnesota for using heaters to warm up balls on the sideline? Why aren't they headlining that one refs measurements had 3/4ths of the Colts balls under also? How come another ref had different readings with a different needle of the Colts balls? Why isn't Andrew Luck being investigated? Why did Wells leak so much info before the superbowl, much of it false? (such as the low readings of the balls). Why should anyone be punished when the best a 3 million dollar investigation could turn up is that the balls were "probably" inflated and Brady "probably" knew? I thought in America probably isn't good enough, especially since it is even debatable what a over or underinflated ball does (Aaaron Rogers likes his over).
otherdata wrote:
TB B FL wrote:since this rule change every team is allowed to handle their balls (heh), meaning if brady and the pats prefer them a little softer, coolbeans. If the refs WHO HANDLE THE FOOTBALL EVERY SINGLE DOWN OF EVERY SINGLE PLAY don't find the footballs to be at an illegal psi, then it's on them. I'm not a pats fan, but I can admit this has been blown so completely out of proportion its rediculous. Everyone hates the team thats good year after year after year in every sport. calling patriots "cheaters" is a cop out for having no other real good reason for hating them other than them consistently being a top team since 2001. Yeah, bellicheck is easy to hate, but that's not enough. All it takes is one scandal to put a label on a team
and before you discredit my statement by saying how big of a deal spygate was, let me stop you there. the patriots were caught video taping the other teams coaching signals from the wrong angle-the year the rule was put in place-in the first game of the season-against the worst team in the nfl-and went on to win the super bowl without doing it since being "caught"
PLEASE PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES
"since this rule change every team is allowed to handle their balls (heh), meaning if brady and the pats prefer them a little softer, coolbeans. " …No the rule is you cannot make them softer even if that's what you prefer. (how do you not know this?)
Calling the patriots cheaters is not a cop out. They literally cheated, so they are cheaters cut and dry.
Who the hell was talking about spy gate? Why bring that up? Unless you just want to show another instance of cheating...
Learn the rules brother. Preferring them softer is not against the rules. They provide a range as opposed to an exact psi for a reason
otherdata wrote:
TB B FL wrote:since this rule change every team is allowed to handle their balls (heh), meaning if brady and the pats prefer them a little softer, coolbeans. If the refs WHO HANDLE THE FOOTBALL EVERY SINGLE DOWN OF EVERY SINGLE PLAY don't find the footballs to be at an illegal psi, then it's on them. I'm not a pats fan, but I can admit this has been blown so completely out of proportion its rediculous. Everyone hates the team thats good year after year after year in every sport. calling patriots "cheaters" is a cop out for having no other real good reason for hating them other than them consistently being a top team since 2001. Yeah, bellicheck is easy to hate, but that's not enough. All it takes is one scandal to put a label on a team
and before you discredit my statement by saying how big of a deal spygate was, let me stop you there. the patriots were caught video taping the other teams coaching signals from the wrong angle-the year the rule was put in place-in the first game of the season-against the worst team in the nfl-and went on to win the super bowl without doing it since being "caught"
PLEASE PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES
"since this rule change every team is allowed to handle their balls (heh), meaning if brady and the pats prefer them a little softer, coolbeans. " …No the rule is you cannot make them softer even if that's what you prefer. (how do you not know this?)
Calling the patriots cheaters is not a cop out. They literally cheated, so they are cheaters cut and dry.
Who the hell was talking about spy gate? Why bring that up? Unless you just want to show another instance of cheating...
"Calling the patriots cheaters is not a cop out. They literally cheated, so they are cheaters cut and dry."
No, they were not found to have cheated. read the report- particularly page 228 where it says: "In sum, the data did not provide a basis for us to determine with absolute certainty whether there was or was not tampering as the analysis of such data ultimately is dependent upon assumptions and information that is not certain."
The most incriminating evidence found was the text messages between the ball boys about tom. Clearly Tom was complaining about the balls being pumped up too much, but it in no way means he told them to set them below the legal limit.
"Who the hell was talking about spy gate? Why bring that up? Unless you just want to show another instance of cheating..."
I bring up Spygate because that's the scandal that started this whole "patriots are cheaters" label. I wanted to further elaborate on how minuscule of a scandal it actually was, yet was again blown out of proportion by the media. Let me repeat myself: It was the first game of the season against the worst team- and what they did was completely legal the year before. Sure, they broke a rule, but a rule that is the equivalent of a holding penalty.
From the article below:
"Back in January, after the deflate-gate story broke, a civil engineer named Warren Sharp put together some numbers that led him to a surprising finding: the Patriots are very, very good at holding onto the ball; and their ability to do so improved significantly after Brady and other quarterbacks pushed for a rule change allowing teams to provide their own footballs for games.
'Based upon the data we've collected and the probabilities, it definitely is extremely unlikely that their ability to hold onto the football would change so much and be as far away from the rest of the NFL,' Sharp said back then. 'It's extremely unlikely.'"
Warren Sharp's study has been universally panned by knowledgeable statisticians.
0/10
Try to keep up wrote:
Warren Sharp's study has been universally panned by knowledgeable statisticians.
0/10
Cute. But wrong.
Read the study yourself, my brainless friend. Then try to keep up.
And this from Brady's former center at New England:
"Bruschi asked (Damien) Woody if he believes Brady told Patriots employees to deflate the footballs the Patriots would use in the AFC Championship Game, and Woody answered, 'I do believe that.'
Woody said he read the Deflategate report and found it convincing. Woody added that he doesn’t believe the AFC Championship Game is the first time Brady cheated.
'From the texts of Jim McNally, him labeling himself ‘the Deflator’ tells me that this wasn’t the only time. When you’ve given yourself a label, to me that insinuates that this action has happened multiple times. I’m looking at it as this has happened multiple times, not only this particular situation, but it’s happened in the past before,' Woody said.
Bruschi asked Woody, 'You believe Tom Brady would tell someone to do something illegal?' Woody answered, 'Yes.' "
"http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/08/ex-patriot-damien-woody-i-believe-tom-brady-cheated/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs
Are we still trying to keep up?
Jersey Shore's Finest wrote:
Here's the problem the NFL has. The report, most notably the 15 year old girls texting back and forth about Brady and the footballs (OMG! Spaz), never even suggests that Brady asked these men to break the rules. The findings suggest that Brady asked for low PSI balls. Does his request mean right at the legal limit? Did he request that these men break the rules? Clearly, Brady gives these guys a hard time about the PSI, but does he ask them to cheat? I am completely unsure how anyone, including a group of lawyers making millions, can make that jump from request to keep low PSI and a request to have the guys cheat. The NFL looks terrible here, although they have done nothing yet.
So why doesn't Brady just release his text messages and clear up the whole thing?
Funny Man wrote:
Try to keep up wrote:Warren Sharp's study has been universally panned by knowledgeable statisticians.
0/10
Cute. But wrong.
Read the study yourself, my brainless friend. Then try to keep up.
Perhaps you should read the link that you posted. You know, the one that contains a statisticians description of Sharp's report as "98% bunk".
Try to keep up wrote:
Funny Man wrote:Cute. But wrong.
Read the study yourself, my brainless friend. Then try to keep up.
Perhaps you should read the link that you posted. You know, the one that contains a statisticians description of Sharp's report as "98% bunk".
Oh, I hadn't read that. I just copied it from another poster here and trusted that it made the point I thought it made. I was wrong. Indeed Warren Sharp used questionable stats to make his point. The only rational conclusion is that he was wrong. My bad.
You sheep are getting sucked in again by the Nfl media machine. Why do you think the results came out during the Nba playoffs? It's all about getting more people to watch and make more money. The nfl is getting millions of dollars in free advertising and I am sure viewership will go up next year to watch Brady play with his hard balls.
Funny Man wrote:
Try to keep up wrote:Perhaps you should read the link that you posted. You know, the one that contains a statisticians description of Sharp's report as "98% bunk".
Oh, I hadn't read that. I just copied it from another poster here and trusted that it made the point I thought it made. I was wrong. Indeed Warren Sharp used questionable stats to make his point. The only rational conclusion is that he was wrong. My bad.
Apology accepted.
In other news, Jags' Fowler tears ACL within first hour of practice... I think there's a team in the NFL that is actually having a worse week than the Pats.
Too easy for the New England haters to pile up on Brady. This should change football for the better, as in, bring your own balls to the game.