The only handoffs I ever did in my life were on the 4x800 and DMR. I don't know the first thing about blind handoffs.
Was there an obvious party at fault? Both share the blame?
Video here shows excellent slow-mo on the hand-off.
The only handoffs I ever did in my life were on the 4x800 and DMR. I don't know the first thing about blind handoffs.
Was there an obvious party at fault? Both share the blame?
Video here shows excellent slow-mo on the hand-off.
I'm going to say Felix. It's the incoming runner's responsibility to place the baton in the hand of the outgoing runner. It appears Felix took off too quickly making Tarmoh overreach in the initial exchange attempt. Then when the exchange wasn't made, Felix turned around and attempted to grab the baton from Tarmoh. Most high schoolers can get in two attempts in the relay zone but these ladies were traveling at such a high rate of speed that they only get one attempt before they run out of real estate. Once the initial attempt was unsuccessful, Felix should have turned her head over her shoulder and again presented her hand to Tarmoh, but NOT grabbed at it. However that may have been a moot point as they were probably close to the end of the exchange zone. It was ugly all around.
BadDeal wrote:
I'm going to say Felix. It's the incoming runner's responsibility to place the baton in the hand of the outgoing runner. It appears Felix took off too quickly making Tarmoh overreach in the initial exchange attempt. Then when the exchange wasn't made, Felix turned around and attempted to grab the baton from Tarmoh. Most high schoolers can get in two attempts in the relay zone but these ladies were traveling at such a high rate of speed that they only get one attempt before they run out of real estate. Once the initial attempt was unsuccessful, Felix should have turned her head over her shoulder and again presented her hand to Tarmoh, but NOT grabbed at it. However that may have been a moot point as they were probably close to the end of the exchange zone. It was ugly all around.
I will also say Felix was at fault mainly because that situation was salvageable by simply slowing down and looking over your should exactly like VCB did. Also, with that big of a lead, Felix should have tighten up on the zone and when for a safe exchange. It is a shame because they were going to destroy the world record.
Allyson Felix should of kept her hand back and jus slowed a lil. Tarmoh missed it on the first try but that happens in sprint exchanges. Felix should of kept her hand up and Tarmoh im sure she would of given it to her. When Felix turns around and starts to reach for the baton is where the problem begins becuz of the speed of the incoming runner (16mph) and the outgoing runner (6-8mph). Felix jus needed to keep running and keep her hand in the proper blind exchange position.
Somene explain this to a non-sprinter. Why do initial exchange attempts fail when the outgoing runner pretty much knows in advance the speed of the incoming runner? Wouldn't you set up a "visual cue" on the track lane so that when he/she crosses it, you would take off on your sprint and the timing would be in synch?
This one was long in the making, from their tie at Trials years ago. What genius thought that they should hand off to each other?
jbcefb wrote:
Somene explain this to a non-sprinter. Why do initial exchange attempts fail when the outgoing runner pretty much knows in advance the speed of the incoming runner? Wouldn't you set up a "visual cue" on the track lane so that when he/she crosses it, you would take off on your sprint and the timing would be in synch?
It's not a verbal cue, but a verbal one. The athlete coming from behind yells "Stick!" and the receiving athlete takes off. Allyson took a split second too fast, but you can't tell from the video if Jeneba misjudged Allyson's speed or if Allyson was a little bit too excited and jumped it (or perhaps more likely, the crowd was to raucous and you couldn't hear a verbal cue in an outside lane). Allyson DID slow down, and that's why Jeneba crashed into her, as you can see from the slow motion in the Universal Sports video (on Universal Sports, not youtube). I know from Allyson that they WERE going for the WR, not just the win, and to get a WR, you have to take some risks. Shit happens.
THEY DON'T HATE EACH OTHER !!! Jeneba and Allyson have the same coach and they train together. They just ran a 4X100 relay together at Mt. Sac two weeks ago, but in that case, it was Allyson passing Jeneba. The reason a coach would put them together on a 4X200 (besides the fact that in her own right, Jeneba is one of the best 200 meter runners in the world) is that THEY KNOW EACH OTHER! The problem is that Jeneba ran lots of relays at TAMU, but she is not experienced in international competition relays.
I can see how verbal cues at loud venues could throw off the timing. Does the incoming runer have a visual cue for yelling "Stick"?
coach d wrote:
[quote]jbcefb wrote:
Somene explain this to a non-sprinter. Why do initial exchange attempts fail when the outgoing runner pretty much knows in advance the speed of the incoming runner? Wouldn't you set up a "visual cue" on the track lane so that when he/she crosses it, you would take off on your sprint and the timing would be in synch?
It's not a verbal cue, but a verbal one. The athlete coming from behind yells "Stick!" and the receiving athlete takes off. Allyson took a split second too fast, but you can't tell from the video if Jeneba misjudged Allyson's speed or if Allyson was a little bit too excited and jumped it (or perhaps more likely, the crowd was to raucous and you couldn't hear a verbal cue in an outside lane). Allyson DID slow down, and that's why Jeneba crashed into her, as you can see from the slow motion in the Universal Sports video (on Universal Sports, not youtube). I know from Allyson that they WERE going for the WR, not just the win, and to get a WR, you have to take some risks. Shit happens.
You don't understand how hard a loud crowd makes it unless you've done it yourself. I'd be a liar if I said that people don't sneak a peek, but that is NORMALLY just to know when to be ready for "stick!". The person passing can more easily judge where they are and the speed they're running. Also, if you sneak too much of a peek and you step on the inside of the curve receiving, that's an automatic DQ. There are some things I would not have done as a coach:
--Having Jeneba pass or Allyson, when Allyson is much more experienced and Jeneba is shorter.
--Sticking your hand back instead of down, once again with a shorter athlete passing.
But, when you run the 4X100 at Mt. Sac, there are ~10000 fans but the noise is really in the home stretch. Allyson ran leg 2 and passed to Jeneba running leg 3, so this was really minimum noise at Mt. Sac. They got to Nassau and the noise was MUCH louder and they were much closer to it. I suspect they had to improvise and that's what caused the fail (along with going for the WR).
Didn't practice the exchange enough. The verbal cue is unnecessary. Felix keeps her hand out and the problem is solved. She needs to wait for it. Going for a record tempted fate.
Was Felix injured at all? She hit the track pretty hard at a weird angle.
I feel bad for Tarmoh. She hit Felix's hand with the baton initially and she never gave up trying to make the exchange.
Though I think their world relays sprint relay coach is one of the best INDIVIDUAL coaches in the world, the fact that in the other 4x200 Justin Gatlin wasn't even lined up in the right exchange zone makes me want to put the blame on the coach. He does not seem to be a great relay coach.
Tarmoh botched it but Felix, alas, made sure it stayed botched.
You have NO IDEA what you are talking about!?! No one who has posted anything does!!! Wow LetsRun normally sucks but this is ridiculous explanation.
1st of all it is both their fault. The blame normally falls more on the incoming runner. It is their job to get the baton to the outgoing runner, but Felix did panick and screw it up. But that's not the real issue...
But the fault mostly rests on their COACH! There is absolutely NO reason to do blind exchanges in the 4x200 especially for the USA. I will explain why.
But first, to correct the ignorant post above...
It is a VISUAL CUE. No one yell's stick to determine when to take off! They put tape down on the lanes and take off when the runner hits the tape.
1) it is IMPOSSIBLE to judge how fast a runner is coming in on the end of a 200 and to replicate that speed in practice. That means they do not practice with accurate marks to simulate the meet.
2) Even if they have perfect marks at practice, they meet is way way different! Pressure and adrenaline through a lot off and change everything. One runner might get out faster, the incoming runner might tighten up and slow down...etc
3) Even if you could do it, these teams don't have time to practice blind hand offs together. They barely practice.
4) the risk to reward ratio. Is way too high. We saw tons of, and I mean TONS of botched handoffs. They might not have dropped the baton but there were lots of ugly ones.
5) Coaches need to swallow their pride and just do 4x4 style exchanges and get the stick around cleanly. A slight slowdown of the baton would have still had the U.S. win by at least 10 meters, maybe more. Instead they were stupid and lost BOTH guys and girls.
Both those kids are from L.A. and live in L.A.
95% Felix and 5% Tarmoh. Tarmah should have slammed the baton into Felixs' hand, but Felix should have left her hand high until she had the baton firmly in her hands AND never should have looked back AND never should have turned around (where she stepped on the brakes). Felix left at the right time and was positioned very well for a solid handoff. It appears they practiced enough beforehand. Felix just had a brain burp.
Where can we vote "C," the coach who told runners who don't practice together regularly to do blind handoffs in a 4x2.
t'hey only get one attempt before they run out of real estate'
More BS letsrun phrases not to be used in the real world or do Americans actually talk like this in real life? Are you a nation of bs 'ers!
I've been a Sprint-Relay coach for 12 years. This is easy- incoming runners's fault- AND the coaches fault. Felix did nothing wrong UNLESS she left early. Incoming runner reached for the exchange early instead of chasing Felix into the zone. You really shouldn't see a straight arm UNTIL the baton is being pressed into the hand (or better- not at all). If your arm is straight- you are decelerating even faster- and have nowhere to go. Going blind in the 4x2 is risky- but if so- fly zone should be very short and arm should come back when the outgoing runner hits the zone- having a verbal cue is pointless. Mistake by Tarmoh and Mitchell.