Jo Pavey slams the Nike Oregon Project for thyroid Use

Flat Stanley wrote:

Ricky Simms stated Farah has never used it.

Agents have nothing to lose by telling the truth about their money makers? Yeah, sure thing.

To summarize are most of the anti- thyroid Lets Runners against physicians treating athletes with subclinical hypothyroidism? I'm sorry, if I have a patient with increased fatigue, and there TSH is high, I am going to treat them- I don't care if excessive exercise made them that way. Likewise, if a cross country skier has PFTs consistent with asthma, I'm going to treat him or her even if excessive exercise in cold weather caused their asthma.

Now if most anti-thyroid lets runners are against treating euthyroid individuals with thyroid medication, then of course, I, and most physicians would agree.

As has been said on this thread, subclinical hypothyroidism is NOT rare and most non athletes likely will not notice subtle increases in fatigue. However, an elite runner will notice these subtle symptoms and lead to an increased percentage of elite athletes diagnosed with this NOT uncommon ailment.

This is a very careless and uneducated comment on her part (Jo Pavey) before attacking and pointing fingers she should be educated in thyroid physiology. This is the problem with a lot people point the finger at those getting treated for thyroid issues.

First, running and training does not cause thyroid disorders. Yes, it can unmask them as athletes are more aware of their bodies but it does not cause a thyroid disorder.

Things that cause/trigger a low functioning thyroid - genetic predisposition, environment triggers, nutrient deficiencies such as Vit D, Iron, Iodine and Selenuim and undereating/underfueling (carbohydrates).

Second, if a runner who does not have sub clinical or clinical hypothyroidism takes thyroid meds they are asking for bad things to happen. These meds can cause increased heart rate, anxiety, depression, restlessness, inability to fall asleep etc...It is very bad situation and no way can you run well if you are taking thyroid meds when your body doesn't need it.

To sum it up, it is very ignorant to say thyroid meds are performance enhancers. NO WAY is this possible.

Get go wrote:

This is a very careless and uneducated comment on her part (Jo Pavey)

I'm sure her "careless and uneducated comment" about her concerns re thyroid meds are based on insider knowledge that you would have absolutely no idea about. Also, they were concerns, others are the ones "attacking and pointing fingers" at individuals and organisations.

She has every right to have concerns and express them, uneducated or otherwise. Seems she's also getting some high profile support.

Flat Stanley wrote:

Obviously there is some talk about doping in Africa but the attention NOP get on let's run for thyroid is far higher. There is no evidence anyone else currently in NOP other than Rupp is taking Thyroid which in any case is not banned and requires no TUE.Ricky Simms stated Farah has never used it. If people talk about it they immediately cite NOP like they are the only users and are cheating everyone else out of a fair race. Clearly this is not just an NOP issue as people like to make out (see title of this thread which is not at all what Pavey said in her article). In addition Africans are clearly taking blood boosters which are banned. Therefore more attention should clearly be focused on that issue

Huh, the bulk of your post is about thyroid, you're adding to the thyroid debate. Why don't you start a Doping in Africa thread?

She has every right. wrote:

I'm sure her "careless and uneducated comment" about her concerns re thyroid meds are based on insider knowledge that you would have absolutely no idea about.

That's exactly what was mentioned before on this thread, that she has been using for years, and is trying to throw the scent off her trail with accusations to others, the same thing that P.R. does.

"First, running and training does not cause thyroid disorders. Yes, it can unmask them as athletes are more aware of their bodies"

LOL, overtraining makes you tired, and cause health issues. A true revelation. Then overtraining athletes need meds to fix their issues. Yup, makes sense; run clean, or run to the point of needing meds. Decision, decision ... which will it be.

Really? I happen to understand Thyroid Physiology and no way anyone can use thyroid meds to enhance performance. So it doesn't matter what insider information is or not. Thyroid Meds CAN NOT be used to enhance performance!!!!

If these finger points took more time to become knowledgeable to understand how the thyroid functions than they would realize how ignorant their claims that thyroid meds help performance.

Additionally I never said she shouldn't express her ignorance just noted that it is careless without understanding thyroid physiology.

.

True Believer wrote:

"First, running and training does not cause thyroid disorders. Yes, it can unmask them as athletes are more aware of their bodies"

LOL, overtraining makes you tired, and cause health issues. A true revelation. Then overtraining athletes need meds to fix their issues. Yup, makes sense; run clean, or run to the point of needing meds. Decision, decision ... which will it be.

Overtraining will through off the HPA axis because it is affecting the Adrenal glands not the thyroid. Only way to fix overtraining that is affecting the HPA axis is to rest and eat. Most of the time overtraining is more of a underfueling problem. When some one is training and not consuming enough carbohydrates to fuel this really messes with the Adrenals. It is extremely stressful on the Adrenals not to have sufficient carbohydrates. It is will start overproducing coritsol in response. This is a recipe for really messing up your HPA axis.

If you take thryoid meds when the adrenals are fried due to overtraining you are going to feel awlful and your thyroid will be overstimulated and you will end up hyperthryoid with fried adrenals - this is a recipe for worst care of heart palps, anxiety, depression, etc...

+1

Physician runner wrote:

However, an elite runner will notice these subtle symptoms and lead to an increased percentage of elite athletes diagnosed with this NOT uncommon ailment.

unless you have objective measures of exercise, people can walk around with hypothyriodism and would never know it until it gets really bad.

When an athlete starts not hitting splits and has ruled out everything else, it makes sense to get tested for medical conditions. This is likely why it appears that more elite athletes are hypothyroid.

AnEndocrinologist wrote:

I am not sure what you mean by endocrine issues leading to weight problems. The main issue can be from rigorous training and/or weight loss leading to hypothalamic amenorrhea. Otherwise the training itself typically does not lead to other issues.

I meant endocrine complications from eating disorders. I assume eds are not unknown among elite distance runners.

With this line of reasoning, then you would also have no problem in treating male endurance athletes with testosterone for subclinical hypogonadism?

She never mentioned this before Nike dropped her

Subclinical hypogonadism is a relatively new condition/term and more studies are certainly pending.

As of now the American Endocrine Society, american thyroid society, European thyroid society, various other societies (there are various organizations with slightly different recommendations- I may be getting the exact name of the societies wrong, but all this is freely available on the web- google subclinical hypothyroidism) state to "consider treating" subclinical hypothyroidism if TSH between 5-10 AND if symptoms of hypothyroidism such as fatigue, etc. If TSH > 10 then all societies state to treat regardless of symptoms as progression to overt hypothyroidism is inevitable and cardiac issues arise is TSH > 10 left untreated.

As of now there is no such guidance regarding subclinical hypogonadism. If there is future guidance and the recommendation is the same (treat if symptoms), then yes, I most certainly would treat athletes and those with less sex drive, etc if they meet criteria for subclinical hypogonadism.

Really, I suggest all look at the various guidelines regarding sub clinical hypothyroidism. I have recently perused them again and I think most are understandable even without a medical degree.

Get go wrote:

Really? I happen to understand Thyroid Physiology and no way anyone can use thyroid meds to enhance performance. So it doesn't matter what insider information is or not. Thyroid Meds CAN NOT be used to enhance performance!!!!

If these finger points took more time to become knowledgeable to understand how the thyroid functions than they would realize how ignorant their claims that thyroid meds help performance.

Additionally I never said she shouldn't express her ignorance just noted that it is careless without understanding thyroid physiology.

What don't you understand about what she said?

"I'm concerned by the number of athletes reportedly taking thyroid medication. Some might be legitimate but I find the situation worrying."

So you're a very clever person who happens to understand "Thyroid Physiology", so what. Read what she wrote, she hasn't expressed an opinion re performance enhancement just that she's "concerned by the number of athletes reportedly taking thyroid medication". Why is it "careless" to be "concerned", I would have thought it exactly the opposite. I don't understand the physiology of heroin, cocaine, EPO, etc, but it doesn't stop me being concerned about the numbers of people abusing those drugs. For a clever person your comprehension skills are a bit ordinary to say the least.

Here's another take on it from Athletics Weekly with a quote from Pavey. Also, LetsRun get's a not too kind mention in the second last post:

"OK, brief summary of the Let’s Run ‘discussion’ (I use the term loosely)"

http://www.athleticsweekly.com/forums/topic/jo-pavey-hits-out-at-unethical-thyroxine/

And apparently according to that AW second last post a Nike doctor has been posting on this LRMB thread.

Exclusive: 10,000m hero Jo Pavey hits out at 'unethical' hormone-replacement drug thyroxine:

http://www.itv.com/news/2015-04-22/the-great-sports-doping-grey-area-should-hormone-replacement-drug-thyroxine-be-banned/

"It is a hormone, it's not a vitamin supplement. I believe it's an unethical area. There are athletes who are full-out drugs cheats, there are athletes who would never take anything and there are athletes who would push the boundaries and take things that I consider unethical.

Pushing yourself extremely hard in training you are going to get certain things going on to your body because you're demanding a lot from your body.

That's part of training and anything I think which is unnaturally making your body deal with the training, increase your metabolism, make you be able to train harder, I believe that's unethical and it shouldn't be something we think 'oh that's fine.

I feel particularly protective that people think 'how's she running like that at the age of 40?' I've prided myself as being a clean athlete my whole career."

AW wrote:

http://www.athleticsweekly.com/forums/topic/jo-pavey-hits-out-at-unethical-thyroxine/

And apparently according to that AW second last post a Nike doctor has been posting on this LRMB thread.

Nice find. I think you've misread the bit about the Nike doctor. He clearly means Dr. Brown, not a poster on this board.

The AW post starts with "a brief summary of the Let's Run `discussion.'" He then offers, "A couple of more comments from me." The are numbered. The first is about what "a Swiss doctor told me..." The second is about what "the doctor who works with Nike believes..."

Normally, I wouldn't bother correcting such an innocent mistake. But the claim that Nike's doctors are on the LRMB plays right into the paranoia and grandiosity of this place.

Ok, maybe Nike doctors aren't reading these boards, but it's clear the guy on the AWMB has spent time here. He says this thread is worth reading despite:

"the rubbish always associated with a few punters on the Letsrun MB..."

Rubbish? Punters?

There will always be an England.