Jo Pavey slams the Nike Oregon Project for thyroid Use

Because thyroid hormone physiology magically changes between regular people and elite athletes.

These people do not suffer adverse medical issues from thyroidectomy that compromises ability to exercise.

Well thanks for the conversation. Unless anyone has legitimate studies or critiques I am moving on. Have a wonderful day.

Glucocorticoids can suppress thyroid as well as narcotics. HGH and testosterone do not suppress thyroid axis.

Question for the endocrinologist, why do many professional and college sports teams regularly consult with endocrinologists?

Question For E wrote:

Question for the endocrinologist, why do many professional and college sports teams regularly consult with endocrinologists?

To try things out that don't enhance performance (nudge, nudge, wink! wink!), but improve an athlete's ability to perform better than they would otherwise.

On the previous page, Fred quoted Steve Magness, who said:

> the REAL reason bodybuilders and people use it is simple. Its NOT to enhance performance.

> Its because taking Testosterone and/or HGH severely impacts the thyroid, making you temporarily hypothyroid.

> You can see that in the two studies below.

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/15/4/357.short

http://psy2.ucsd.edu/~mgorman/Daly.pdf

.

The first article cited didn't show that taking HGH makes you hypothyroid. It showed that people getting a cocktail of steroids, including testosterone, became temporarily hypothyroid. However, because of the experimental designed, it is impossible to tease out the link between any element of the cocktail and thyroid function.

Later research shows that testosterone does induce hypothyroidism. For example, the body builders cite this: Lovejoy et al, compared testosterone to oxandrolone and nandrolone decaoate. Testosterone had no effect on thyroid function; the effect of the others was complicated.

Bottom line: As anendocrinologist said, it'd be nice to see some more careful studies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8574271

^^^^^ Obviously, a typo. The Lovejoy study showed that taking testosterone did NOT induce hypothyroidism.

That will teach me to use such a snarky name.

Only one was a study link. I could not see there numbers of these so called significant changes in hormone since you need special access.

Couple things to speculate on. One is that high doses of hgh or anabolic steroid tend to drop thyroid binding proteins so total thyroid hormones look low, but not active free levels. Also at the tissue level tissues protect the selves by up regulating conversion of ft4 to more active ft3, hence the likely change if for ft4. Finally this study does not look at clinical endpoints to see if these changes are relevant to performance. So I suspect though I cannot access the numbers these people are fairly euthyroid.

We even question when treating subclinical hypothyroid at what point it is of benefit:

David Cooper a top thyroid expert from Hopkins on question of benefit in treating subclinical hypothyroidism:

http://thetrp.net/article.asp?issn=0973-0354

;year=2013;volume=10;issue=4;spage=9;epage=11;aulast=Cooper

Exercise tolerance not significantly benefited after 1 year treatment

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15855263/

Systemic review 2014:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25141089/

Magness had it right with body builders using it to burn fat. They want to win in a particular weight class and their training does not lend itself as well to lean muscle mass so use thyroid to lose fat so they can add more muscle. Not that they developed any significant hypothyroid symptoms.

A team may have an endocrinologist perhaps because enough of the population has legitimate endocrine issues, 3-5% hypo, 5-10% subclinical hypo and 1-2% subclinical hyperthyroid, .4-1% overtly hyper. I have seen elite NCAA distance runner for recurrent stress fractures found to be due to losing calcium in urine. Could a team be using an endocrinologist to get an edge, sure. But if I was looking to get an edge in distance running, I wouldn't waste my time with thyroid hormone.

I just read this thread, and am even more confused than when I started. As far as I can make out, there are several issues that are being debated. I think it might be helpful to make them clear, so we can figure out exactly where there is disagreement, and on what grounds.

1) There are lots of rumors about elite athletes using thyroid medicines. Dr. Brown claims to have seen lots of medalists, but he can't say who. There are rumors about Al Sal's runners.

What do we know about thyroid use by elite runners? Is it all just rumor, or are there some hard facts?

2) I take it that everyone agrees that in and of themselves, thyroid meds are not PEDs. That is, runners with normal thyroid function will not benefit from hyperthyroidism.

a) Is this correct?

b) How about "fine-tuning" thyroid levels to find the "sweet spot"? Would that improve performance?

3) Some people claim that elite runners need thyroid meds because of their training program.

a) Is there any evidence that training, in and of itself, impairs thyroid function?

b) Is there any evidence that other PEDs affect thyroid function?

4) Do any of the answers depend on what events we are talking about? Could it be that thyroid meds would help distance runners but not sprinters? Or vice versa?

I appreciate you taking these questions seriously and responding in some depth. It's helpful.

PS I'm sure you don't want to generalize, but I've always assumed many elite female distance runners have endocrine issues related to weight control.

On twitter, I saw this:

https://twitter.com/laurenfleshman/status/581130144691007488

"Is abused as a way to dig out of hole without time off."

I can see this for EP0, but where's the studies that proves thyroid can dig you out of hole (overtraining) without time off? I don't see it. There's no evidence for that. Or is there? Show me the study. Oh, there is none, right?

The evidence is that low thyroid is just like low iron. Having ideal iron doesn't prevent or help recover from overtraining. Same with having ideal thyroid.

This isssue, IMO, is something twitter outrage has latched onto. Wrongly.

You left out the best part of the review on what we know about "Impact of overt and subclinical hypothyroidism on exercise tolerance."

CONCLUSIONS: A limited body of knowledge exists concerning exercise tolerance in treated patients with hypothyroidism, and there is an insufficient amount of quantitative studies on the effects of a physical training program. To enhance exercise and sports participation for this specific group, more research in this forgotten area is warranted.

"Forgotten area"? That might explain why Dr. Brown gets business -- there's not enough research to show he's right or wrong!

The studies are not made public. The ones that exist are top secret classified.

Keep up the denial work on behalf of your benefactors, or those you chose to blindly support. It is interesting to see someone people are being paid to try to make it all go away--some good PR work there. The issue won't go away, you can rely on that.

Doc, you cheated us wrote:

That might explain why Dr. Brown gets business -- there's not enough research to show he's right or wrong!

Which meets the criteria established by a certain coach in Pacific Northwest. If it hasn't been proven wrong or bad, it's the right thing to try out.

A usual, the ratio of useful information and reflection to nonsense makes it hard to figure out anything that is going on.

Here are some reflections from a "user": I have no idea what hyperthyroidism feels like, but it is hard to imagine it being a performance enhancer. On the other end of the scale, I can attest from my own experience that hypothyroidism interferes with all sorts of ordinary functioning, and so proper treatment does for sure "enhance" performance, if by that one means "returns one to a normal state of health by the diagnosis and treatment of a medical condition." I do not think there is a TSH 'sweet spot,' but -- following the understanding of my physician, the range of what is considered to be normal -- between hypo- and hyper- is rather wide, and so my physician, by a process of testing, of my taking medication, and of followup testing combined with my feedback to him, has made adjustments, trying to find the best dosage for me within the normal range. What he has said to me is, within the normal range, different patients report feeling best at different TSH test results. So, in these ways, I suppose I could be said to have been 'manipulating' thyroid medication for some years, in order to find the best outcome, for me.

This is all legal, in athletics terms, and is good medical practice, too.

As for Prozac or other SSRI's as something that enhances athletic performance, that is about as concentrated a bit of nonsense as one can find on these message boards. When I go back and read the interviews Salazar gave around 1994 (when he 'came back' and won Comrades), what was quoted and reported read to me like a person who had been very depressed since his elite athletics career had ended in 1984. He would not have been the first post-elite athlete to confront that problem. Perhaps Prozac helped him recover from that. If so, good for him. Such medications do help about half of those who take them. If such medications help a depressed person function, good for them -- they are fortunate. But such medications just as often have debilitating physical effects that are noticeable in athletic training.

In any case, those medications are legal, in athletics terms. The continuing attempt to suggest that such things constitute 'unethical' sporting practice, if not outright cheating, suggest more about those who continue to restate these things

As for all the other WADA-legal stuff that Salazar, or other coaches try out, so what? Training aids are either WADA-legal, or not. If they are legal, they are legal. I would expect a good coach -- especially one with a lot of $$ to spend -- to try out every legal thing that might help. This is not a 'grey area.' There are athletics-legal substances and strategies, and those that are not. Not hard to know which side of the line one is on.

I'm not interested in defending Salazar. Salazar seems like a rather dislikable person to me. Not that it matters to me, unless it is actually shown that he is actually cheating. But the things that are dragged out on here don't constitute cheating.

distractithon wrote:

I'm not interested in defending Salazar. Salazar seems like a rather dislikable person to me. Not that it matters to me, unless it is actually shown that he is actually cheating. But the things that are dragged out on here don't constitute cheating.

Well, you proved yourself a defender of NOP, regardless of claiming otherwise. Like any highly secretive training program, the details are buried deep, and it will take years to figure it out. How long did it take to nail Lance Armstrong, who was never caught using PEDs by WADA-devised testing methods?

Jo Pavey @jopavey

· "Apr 24

Excited to be with @adidasuk I love to run & still have goals I want to achieve. It's great to have their support as I continue my journey"

Flat Stanley wrote:

Instead of Focusing on NOP why are Lets Run not focusing on the big doping problems in Africa. Dirty agents

Here on LR we're able to focus on more than one issue at any time, obviously you're not. If you want more on Africa PEDS/Agents, etc, etc check the Message Board listings.

I am not sure what you mean by endocrine issues leading to weight problems. The main issue can be from rigorous training and/or weight loss leading to hypothalamic amenorrhea. Otherwise the training itself typically does not lead to other issues.

"Unexplained Weight Gain

Are you gaining weight despite eating healthier and getting more physical activity? If you are gaining weight for no apparent reason, you may have a medical problem.

"Often times, a hormonal disorder can be the underlying cause of unexplained weight gain. An evaluation with a board-certified endocrinologist can identify treatable hormonal problems that may be causing unexplained weight gain. Because abnormal weight gain is considered a medical problem, insurance companies usually allow a full evaluation with an endocrinologist.

"An evaluation typically includes obtaining a detailed history, physical examination and laboratory testing. There are many different medical problems that can cause weight gain. Your physician will perform a detailed evaluation to look for the common and not so common causes of abnormal weight gain."

Atlanta Center for Endocrinology:

http://www.intelligenthealthcenter.com/medicalservices/unexplained-weight-gain.htm