Jo Pavey slams the Nike Oregon Project for thyroid Use

Max Rebo wrote:

This won't stick here, but honorable effort for trying to bring reason to the mob.

No TUE's, no l-carnitine, no PEDS, no non-disclosure agreements, no secret labs, no death star. But those facts are bad for business for the Brojos along with the coaches and athletes that slander the NOP.

I think of it as the opposite.

From underwater treadmilles, to anti-gravity treadmills, to altitude tents, to thyroid, to asthma masks, to L-Carnitine, to form changes, Alberto a long time ago made it clear its' very much not just about the running.

And I know I'm forgetting a few things. Oh yeah, prozac in his own career, allergy meds for Rupp, etc.

This isn't a witch hunt. As the Pavey example shows, there are some VERY prominent people in the sport concerned about all of this.

-Robert

And I've heard there were non-disclosure agreements and testing in their own labs. So basically I believe the opposite of you. The only question is - is this it and is it legal?

You're missing the point. Maybe it's true that slamming loads of thyroxine is harmful, and that being hyperthyroid is not helpful to runners. Whatever. The important point is, at least 4 of the all-time top male US runners: Ryan Hall, Galen Rupp, Alberto Salazar, and Bob Kennedy, have been confirmed as having taken thyroid medications. It's not like I'm cherry-picking a few athletes from a large sample; that's 4 of the most successful US male distance runners since 1980. The very cream of the crop, all suffering from a relatively unusual malady you would not expect to find much of among our finest athletes. That, by itself, should set off some kind of alarm bells if you are truly an endocrinologist. Furthermore, you've got this guy, Jeffrey Brown, giving out hypothyroidism diagnoses to anyone who asks, and bragging about how he has treated 16 Olympic medalists or whatever he claims. Hello!!! You can't just say, oh, well, taking a lot of thyroxine can't be helpful, and, golly, what an interesting coincidence that so many medalists happen to have thyroid problems!.

And as the poster "Clerk" keeps trying to point out, taking thyroxine doesn't necessarily mean that it is actually the thyroxine itself that is enhancing the athlete's performance. It could be used as a masking agent, or in a complementary role with other substances. Most sophisticated doping programs don't limit themselves to just one drug

Underwater treadmills? Most big time universities, hospitals and all pro sports teams have them.

AlterGs? Most mid major and above colleges have them, as well as hospitals and all pro sports teams.

Altitude Tents? Mainstream in endurance sports. Many college kids use them and most international level distance runners use altitude of some form for the performance benefit.

Thyroid? You have proof that one current NOP athlete needs it. No proof at all that anyone else on the NOP takes it. The other one athlete, no longer on the team, was on it before she joined the team. Besides, WADA looked into this and found it to be nonsense. Perhaps they know better than you - and know if it's being abused or not by the NOP.

Asthma masks? Who cares what Rupp wears on his face? He could wear a Spider-Man mask for all I care.

L-carnitine? Legal supplement taken legally.

Form Changes? You've got to be joking on this one. What's wrong with trying to correct running form if that's what you believe will make your athlete better?

Prozac? Ok. I'll give you that one, but that's not the NOP and we don't want to be digging through everyone's medicine cabinet do we now, Robert?

Allergy meds? Half the country is on allergy meds right now. Have you lost your mind?

Sorry, sounds like a witch hunt...

Guess what, a lot of top athletes these days look to doctors/medical experts to find a legal edge. Since there is a lot of money to be had, sell outs like Brown will sacrifice sound science and good medical practice to make money. This does not prove that they found an edge using thyroid medication.

Two people use it to mainly burn fat in conjunction with other meds and used by body builders who are trying to bull up mass but avoid fat gain. It does not mask other drugs so it will not protect you from drug screening.

Also, we should be reminded that in science we need to disprove the null hypothesis: that a (high doses of thyroid medication) does not improve b (exercise capacity), but since no one on here is interested in finding credible scientific evidence I will offer evidence to prove my point:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10634380/

Please do not attempt to quote the tailoring LT4 at the end on that small group patients improving cardiac parameters as a sign of some sweet spot and competitive advantage. They are merely saying there virtual reversal of the bad effects on cardiac measures and exercise capacity NOT improvement over people who are euthyroid.

Yes AlSal and friends could be abusing some other meds, but thyroid hormone is not giving them a competitive advantage!

She isn't American

You must work for NOP.

"As recently claimed, TSH-suppressive therapy with L-T4 may have adverse effects on the heart, but these results have not been consistently confirmed. We assessed cardiac function by clinical, echocardiographic, and ergometabolic criteria in 19 patients (16 women and 3 men) receiving long term L-T4 at a fixed daily dose ranging from 1.8-4.0 microg/kg."

- but thyroid hormone is not giving them a competitive advantage!

Wrong, your link makes no such claim.

"Ten patients were athyreotic after surgery for differentiated thyroid carcinoma, 5 had undergone subtotal thyroidectomy for nontoxic goiter, and 4 had been operated upon for diffuse or nodular nontoxic goiter. The control group consisted of 19 healthy untrained volunteers (15 women and 4 men)"

- Do you have clue what this, from your link, means? Carcinoma, cancer maybe? Thyroidectomy might be an operation. Goiter might be some kind over important health issue.

- The BMIs averaged 25, fatties.

- VO2max, look it up in the report yourself, then weep at the link you hung your reputation on.

AnEndocrinologist wrote:

Also, we should be reminded that in science we need to disprove the null hypothesis: that a (high doses of thyroid medication) does not improve b (exercise capacity), but since no one on here is interested in finding credible scientific evidence I will offer evidence to prove my point:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10634380/

You aren't the only one who reads journals.

Maybe it's not as good as biomimetic EPO, FG-4592 or the like, but slightly more thyroid hormone in combination with altitude training/living is effective and is totally legal...for now!

Why are people talking about TUE's in relation to Thyroid. As far as I understand it Thyroid is not banned therefore no TUE is required.

TUE's are generally for short term exemptions not long term use and are not required for medication which is not a banned substance.

RUPP needs no TUE for a thyroid and no one has ever said he stopped taking it as far as I am aware. Saying he has not had a TUE for a couple of years does not mean he is not still taking Thyroid

However, There is no evidence anyone else in NOP has used it other than Begley. Ricky Simms denied Farah ever used it. Don't agree with using it if not really needed but the vendetta against NOP is a bit silly when clearly this sort of thing is going on all over the place. Why the focus always on NOP when Ryan Hall, Bob Kenedy and others took or are taking it.

What is most annoying about these broads is that people state information as fact when they are totally uninformed and then it becomes the common consensus. Why is there not more moderation clearing up completely inaccurate or misleading posts so that people reading the site can really understand the issues and facts behind things like this.

elmore345 wrote:

She does not mention the NOP once so this thread is pointless.

She is probably concerned about British athletes being given thyroid treatment.

It's not a performance enhancer. Her concern is surely with the athletes' health?

Here is a another piece that also refers to the WSJ article, and the theory behind Dr. Brown's work:

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-thyroid-replacement-a-performance-enhancing-drug/

Flat Stanley wrote:

However, There is no evidence anyone else in NOP has used it other than Begley. Ricky Simms denied Farah ever used it. Don't agree with using it if not really needed but the vendetta against NOP is a bit silly when clearly this sort of thing is going on all over the place. Why the focus always on NOP when Ryan Hall, Bob Kenedy and others took or are taking it.

You are clouding the matter by making it out like this is a witch hunt against NOP. The original Jo Pavey quote said nothing about NOP; it merely referred to athletes using thyroid medications. That includes Kennedy and Hall, and anyone from any group who is taking thyroxine. If any extra focus falls on NOP, it is because Salazar and Rupp - 2 of the biggest names in US distance running - both "need" thyroxine. And the NOP is known to make regular visits to Dr Jeffrey Brown, who is known to be pro-thyroid medication for athletes.

I'll repeat my question from earlier: if thyroid issues are truly unimportant - a non-factor - then why have Salazar, Kennedy, Hall, and Rupp - 4 of the biggest names in US distance running of the last 30+ years - all needed to take thyroid medication?

You may be able to google articles , but your ability to translate them is at a level of a novice. Showing some culture dish effects on cancer line cells does not translate to clinical effects. Other papers on PEOPLE by Biondi et al in 1996 also showed decreased exercise capacity.

For others, changes in ventricular thickening, drops in VO2 max, decreased threshold for anaerobic threshold translate to real exercise intolerance. I have treated patients many who report worse exercise tolerance that improves when getting them back to euthyroid. So yes I use anectdotal evidence, but also studies looking at clinical outcomes, not hypoxia inducing factors in a cancer cell line.

Again where is your randomized control trial showing a sweet spot tsh and improved exercise capacity in euthyroid patients? Multiple posters again fail to disprove the null hypothesis.

Ultimately I understand your annoyance with NOP. I get annoyed with patients coming in labeled hypothyroid who had evidence contrary to this. I get them off and once their axis recovers they realize it was not making a difference.

Oh, I really should have read the paper I provided a link to. Those test subjects were patients, not athletes, and they have sever medical issues related to thyroid. I shouldn't have assumed those results would apply to highly trained athletes.

Athletes can't have every type of drug taken away from them either just because the running world is so scared of PEDs usage. If a normal person feels bad, they go to the doctor. The doctor prescribes a medication based off their symptoms, so they take it. When athletes feel bad, what are they supposed to do?

I am definitely for protecting the integrity of the sport against EPO, Anabolic Steroids, and drugs with high correlation to effects on performance. The grey area drugs usually are derived from real symptoms from the health of the athlete like allergies.

The thyroid drug has a lot of anecdotal stories, but no real correlation. As the physician in the post was saying earlier, sub-clinical thyroidism can be pretty common. Most elite athletes want to ensure they are in the best health conditions as possible, considering their physical being is their paycheck. It actually makes sense that they'd take additional steps to ensure their health is in check over a normal person, with respect to the rules. It would be like a business finding some type of tax savings due to the state tax laws at the time. Its not breaking the rules.

We live in an age where we fight every type of drug. Yet, as a normal person, if we get sick, we expect to have help from some type of medication. Not exactly fair for athletes if we ban every type of medication.

You are overlooking that many athletes using medications don't really need the medications. They only need them to allow them to over train, recover quickly, and keep weight off. In other words, to enhance their performance.

rojo wrote:

This isn't a witch hunt. As the Pavey example shows, there are some VERY prominent people in the sport concerned about all of this.

To the contrary, witch hunts are your specialty.

Pavey is simply pulling a Radcliffe, upping her own use while increasingly accusing others to take the scent off her own trail, meanwhile garnering support from officials - and journalists - who won't disclose her own bad results.

wasn't it stated wrote:

Didn't Salazar state in an interview last year that Galen et al were no longer taking thyroid medication? I do know he said there were no TUES for his group.

I'm all for exposing cheating etc. but would prefer to actually rely on facts rather than bias, innuendo etc..

It's just more jealousy coupled with PC brainwashing. One has to wonder if training at the level these people doesn't throw off the thyroid. That's for legitimate researchers to look at. Look at what's going on with the Africans. More and more coming up positive for drugs, more and more rationalizations from the same people who would tear apart white or Asian athletes for the same thing. And that type of irrational PC behavior is what helps any Africans who are doped to their eyeballs get away with drug use - never mind their enablers.

What about the thyroid axis being thrown off by high doses of other hormones?

Any science on that?

Doctor, do you disagree with this

Steve Magness:

"Up until now, I’ve gone over the traditional route to thyroid disease. Now I want to delve into the 'what if' scenario. What happens if you take thyroid and you don’t need it and how could athletes potentially abuse it?

But I heard bodybuilders use it, so it must enhance performance!?

In the bodybuilding world they apparently use thyroid to cut weight because of the effects it has on metabolism.(How’d I learn bodybuilders use it…google) They essentially put themselves in a hyper state for a short time to cut fat. I have no idea why/how, but again this seems like a horrible idea. First off a runner would be sacrificing recovery (you recover worse in hyper state), and most runners are lean enough.

But the REAL reason bodybuilders and people use it is simple. It’s NOT to enhance performance.

It’s because taking Testosterone and/or HGH severely impacts the thyroid, making you temporarily hypothyroid.

You can see that in the two studies below.

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/15/4/357.short

http://psy2.ucsd.edu/~mgorman/Daly.pdf

Both studies found that with taking either testosterone or HGH, your TSH levels were elevated. So in order to keep order in their hormonal systems they took thyroid. In fact, look towards Major League Baseball and you can find an incidence of this in 2010.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/thyroid-gland-good-indicator-human-growth-hormone-article-1.174940

(Also, note in that article that in 2010 WADA already looked into thyroid as performance enhancers. It’s 2013. It’s safe to say at that time they found just what they said in the WSJ article.)

So, that’s the reason your local steroid junky football player might take thyroid…because testosterone or HGH made him hypothyroid.

Interestingly, if you followed the Floyd Landis case, you know he was taking synthetic thyroid. I don’t know the details, but it makes sense because he was also on a drug program that included EPO, testosterone, and who knows what. My bet is his drug taking knocked him into hypothyroid status."