Wariner is BACK, baby!

ventolin ^3 wrote:

This excellent time for 800 RUNNER, though Jim RYUN was 1+ seconds faster out of blocks.

LOL

Thanks. I needed that laugh today.

exthrower wrote:

Impressive...considering that he's one of the few that are not on drugs.

True. The two guys ahead of him on the all-time list were drug fiends. Not PC, but the truth. Wariner, Kirani, Danny Everett - probably the only three drug free guys to break 44 at sea level.

With the right PED cocktail, he can run well into his 40's.

another hs coach wrote:

He is about 5-8 years past the typical prime for a 400 meter runner. How many other 31 year olds have run faster this season? That's a serious question that I really don't know. I'm just guessing there aren't many.

Wariner wasn't on drugs?? You're joking right?? 43.45 400m for 3rd all time, then suddenly he falls off the face of the Earth? Foot injuries my ass... the guy was doped to the gills. Watch him in Stockholm in 2006... he's third coming into the straight and probably runs the last 100m in 11.3. It was absurd.

Also, it was quite mysterious how Clyde Hart's group suddenly all fell off during the 2008 season, right around the time the Cera EPO product was on anti-doping authorities radar. 8-10 elites (including SRR, Tyler Christopher, Darold Williamson, Gary Kikaya) were suddenly garbage. As a matter of fact, TC was 5th in the 2007 worlds, and 3rd in 2005, yet failed to advance past ROUND ONE in Beijing. Meanwhile, Wariner literally ran a second slower than he did in Osaka. Blame the coaching change? If you do, you're a dimwit.

1 lap is phar lap wrote:

exthrower wrote:

Impressive...considering that he's one of the few that are not on drugs.

True. The two guys ahead of him on the all-time list were drug fiends. Not PC, but the truth. Wariner, Kirani, Danny Everett - probably the only three drug free guys to break 44 at sea level.

Danny Everett not on drugs? Surely you jest.

Sorry to burst your bubble but Wariner was NOT drug free. None of Clyde's greats were. MJ sure as heck wasn't either.

dannyboy96 wrote:

Wariner wasn't on drugs?? You're joking right?? 43.45 400m for 3rd all time, then suddenly he falls off the face of the Earth? Foot injuries my ass... the guy was doped to the gills. Watch him in Stockholm in 2006... he's third coming into the straight and probably runs the last 100m in 11.3. It was absurd.

Also, it was quite mysterious how Clyde Hart's group suddenly all fell off during the 2008 season, right around the time the Cera EPO product was on anti-doping authorities radar. 8-10 elites (including SRR, Tyler Christopher, Darold Williamson, Gary Kikaya) were suddenly garbage. As a matter of fact, TC was 5th in the 2007 worlds, and 3rd in 2005, yet failed to advance past ROUND ONE in Beijing. Meanwhile, Wariner literally ran a second slower than he did in Osaka. Blame the coaching change? If you do, you're a dimwit.

Watch Andrew Rock at Helsinki 2005. He was in dead last going into the straight, finishes second.

if you think for a second that Andrew Rock was doping, then really, God help you.

dannyboy96 wrote:

Wariner wasn't on drugs?? You're joking right?? 43.45 400m for 3rd all time, then suddenly he falls off the face of the Earth? Foot injuries my ass... the guy was doped to the gills. Watch him in Stockholm in 2006... he's third coming into the straight and probably runs the last 100m in 11.3. It was absurd.

Also, it was quite mysterious how Clyde Hart's group suddenly all fell off during the 2008 season, right around the time the Cera EPO product was on anti-doping authorities radar. 8-10 elites (including SRR, Tyler Christopher, Darold Williamson, Gary Kikaya) were suddenly garbage. As a matter of fact, TC was 5th in the 2007 worlds, and 3rd in 2005, yet failed to advance past ROUND ONE in Beijing. Meanwhile, Wariner literally ran a second slower than he did in Osaka. Blame the coaching change? If you do, you're a dimwit.

Wariner was certainly, IMHO, a doper who made excellent use of EPO and friends--much like his mentor Michael Johnson, who, IMHO, not only used EPO but also made great use of anabolics to maximize his speed over 100-200 meters.

HOWEVER, injuries have certainly played a role in Wariner's decline*. He did have knee surgery, he has had hamstring problems, foot problems, etc. etc. And he was a prodigious talent from his HS days on--unless one believes he was doping from "day one", he looks to me like he would have had no problem running well under 45 seconds as a clean athlete during his healthy years...

*Needless to say, HGH, steroids & SERMs allow one to recover from injuries much more quickly and avoid many injuries in the first place...

this thread is such sh*t.

Wariner broke 44 or ran 44 flat for 5 straight seasons, ran a bad race in Beijing (still broke 44 3 times in 08'). Then he had a bad 2009, bounced back in 2010, and the injuries got to him and his thin frame.

He's every bit clean. You have to be joking to think you can do drugs for 5 straight seasons and see improvements each one.

His (and Hart's) only mistake is that he is woefully underpowered and thin/weak.

The guy ran 50 flat for his first ever 400m in high school (sophomore year?) with NO TRAINING! By 20, after training with the best ever 400m runner and under the best ever 400m coach, he was down to 44 flat and ran around that for a decade. He's still running in the 45s.

His running technique is perfect, one of the smoothest, balanced (power/grace) running techniques of ALL TIME.

He has a perfect physical body for 400m.

Drugs don't give you talent, technique, or body type.

He's a hard worker and a tough competitor. Drugs don't give you that either.

He runs his best when it matters most, and he has the Olympic and world champs medals to prove it. He's won more global medals than every US distance runner combined over the last decade. The guy is Money with a capital M!

The guy is obviously on the sauce. The difference is that he is older and his receptors are fried, plus he is risking health issues. Not to mention the amount of injuries hes had.

Runners have a very interesting pool of drugs to pull from; EPO, Test suspension, EQ, even Test prop would yield incredible results for a sprinter.

However there are two seasons in every pro sport. One in which you compete and the other in which you pass a drug test. Remember you can have 2 positives and still be clean; not to mention that the testosterone to epi testosterone ratio is 4-1 ( recently changed from 6-1) which is huge considering on average the normal human is 1-1...

In my opinion warnier was stacking Epo and test suspension during his top runs and i thing Johnson was running pure EQ ( horse steroid ). These cycles take time and during his olympic run in 08 Wariner messed up and peaked at the wrong time.

The reason its not public is because its illegal, it would damage the sports rep, ( look at cycling after lance got busted can u remember the last guy who was "clean" winning the tour?"

People want to see amazing time so they are bound to cheat and you would be an idiot to think otherwise; you still must admire the athletes as they have to train harder, smarter and more on the drugs.

Action93 wrote:

Remember you can have 2 positives and still be clean.

What the facking fack are you babbling about? Are you a complete retard?

Read this. The best, most informative, comprehensive and in-depth book on the subject, by far.

http://www.amazon.com/Speed-Trap-Biggest-Scandal-Olympic/dp/0312048777

Stupidity is natural too wrote:

His (and Hart's) only mistake is that he is woefully underpowered and thin/weak.

Of course he's underpowered and weak to run that fast. Just like a Cheetah.

exthrower wrote:

Wariner never had the physique of a streroid user...After 50 years in bodybuilding around steroid users I can almost always tell by observing the muscularity and bodyfat percentage...and EPO isn't an advantage for a sprinter.

Regardless of whether JW did or did not take ANY drug, EPO is of enormous help to 400 meter runners, given the significant aerobic energy contribution to this event. See

&

for example.

God had better help me then.

What makes you think he wasn't? That era had an EPO test yes, but it was in its primitive form, and largely unreliable. Biological Passport didn't come into being until early 2009, and the first athletes really weren't caught until a year later (see Claudia Pechstein, Denis Menchov).

Be careful with your assumptions based on an athlete's looks. Warner looked like the cryptkeeper back then, but he was so obviously doping.

Lastly, Rock torching the field (a field including a number of dopers) is suspect, so I appreciate your example as it highlights my point. As a quarter-miler, I can tell you that getting to 300m fast is important, with the ultimate goal being a strong finish with no gas in the tank. Rock absolutely destroys everyone, and looks fresh afterward, most likely an indication of a high hematocrit.

In sum, looks and personality can be deceiving my friend.

I think this thread is important actually. Engaging in a doping discourse like this, for me, obviates the degree to which people are still in the dark about these practices.

Yeah, Wariner had some great seasons, and was fairly consistent for a time, but the difference between running 44.0 or 43.9, vs. 43.4 is STAGGERING. That is literally like a 10.2 guy suddenly running 9.75. If you go to the Mercier scoring tables I'm sure you'll find support for this notion.

Maybe I sound disdainful, I can acknowledge that. But discrete changes in performance, in short periods of time and toward world class performances should be considered suspect.

EPO is a massive advantage for a quarter-miler. Do a little research on aerobic threshold/lactic system and you'll see.

So your saying that someone at Baylor university started a 20 year old JW on a program of EPO and steroids and kept him on them for a decade, without ever getting caught, or spilling the beans. Riiiiight.

He won Olympic gold in 2004 in 44.0 and can still run in the 45s (last Saturday in fact).

He's that good mostly because of his technique and body type. Watch him run. He is smooth, graceful, and poised. He covers a lot of ground in an efficient manner. He's extremely talented, hard working, and well coached.

At his peak he could run under 44 and can run in the 45s. The guy was born to run the 400m.