Chaos / Disaster at DIII Nats - Officials miscount # of laps in 5k (again) and there are two different winners!!

Ghrelin wrote:

not a registered username wrote:

It's ridiculous that Regan is getting penalized for counting her laps correctly. How are we supposed to get other people to take our sport seriously when stuff like this is the NORM?? We don't even take our OWN sport seriously. it's a joke. not a very funny one though.

Have you ever watched any other sport? Fans complain about the referees making mistakes INCESSANTLY. Also, she's being penalized for not following the rules. Bell signifies the last lap, so if you choose to ignore it that's on you.

The rule is that the bell is to be rung as the runner starts the last lap. This is a rule for the bell ringer, not for the runner.

Anyway, isn't it also a rule that the 5,000m is 5,000 meters long? It's impossible to follow both of these rules at once, right? You've just decided that she should neglect one rule in order to follow another, but there's no logical reason that she shouldn't have ignored the bell rule and followed the race distance rule instead, given that either choice requires the runner to ignore a rule.

pogo wrote:

not a registered username wrote:

It's ridiculous that Regan is getting penalized for counting her laps correctly. How are we supposed to get other people to take our sport seriously when stuff like this is the NORM?? We don't even take our OWN sport seriously. it's a joke. not a very funny one though.

Poor assumption. If she knew where she was in the race she can't assume that Cheadle doesn't. Cheadle walked away from her, Regan offered zero response. Rules are clearly in Cheadle's favor, and I doubt the race would have had a different result at 25 laps of proper officiating.

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling... I don't think Regan assumed anything, except that the race would be 5000m long. The only reason that Cheadle "walked away from her" is that Cheadle kicked from 500m out!! Do you really not understand the difference between kicking from 500m and 300m?? Regan probably thought Cheadle kicked too early. People misjudge their kick all the time. Or maybe Regan thought "Wow, that's an insane kick! I can't match that for 500m." And so she backed off. But Cheadle DIDN'T have an insane 500m kick. She had a strong 300m kick that she used too early. Of course it looked like Regan was slower--because Regan wasn't kicking yet and Cheadle was!!!

I guess you also thought Lawi Lalang was clearly running away with this race:

http://www.usatf.tv/gprofile.php?mgroup_id=45365&mgroup_event_id=574&do=videos&video_id=104548

And Jordan Hasay just had "zero response" to Kara Goucher at the 2013 US 10,000m championships. CLEARLY Goucher was going to win that one:

http://www.usatf.tv/gprofile.php?mgroup_id=45365&do=videos&video_id=93841

Also, the rules are NOT clearly in Cheadle's favor. The rules favor Regan. Or maybe you think that the same officials who don't know how many laps are in a 5k are somehow experts on the rules.

break a rule either way wrote:

Ghrelin wrote:

Have you ever watched any other sport? Fans complain about the referees making mistakes INCESSANTLY. Also, she's being penalized for not following the rules. Bell signifies the last lap, so if you choose to ignore it that's on you.

The rule is that the bell is to be rung as the runner starts the last lap. This is a rule for the bell ringer, not for the runner.

Anyway, isn't it also a rule that the 5,000m is 5,000 meters long? It's impossible to follow both of these rules at once, right? You've just decided that she should neglect one rule in order to follow another, but there's no logical reason that she shouldn't have ignored the bell rule and followed the race distance rule instead, given that either choice requires the runner to ignore a rule.

THANK YOU!! The rule is ***not*** that the bell means is the last lap. So can everyone please stop saying something that's not true? The rule is that the bell should be rung on the last lap. That's not even *close* to the same thing. I guess if the someone forgets to ring the bell, there isn't a final lap? of course not!! The *rules* say that Regan is the winner. The idiot officials said that Cheadle was the winner. That's why it's a problem. The officials made two huge mistakes: miscounting the laps and declaring the wrong winner. I'm shocked that there isn't a system in place for rectifying that.

If Regan knew the laps were off, why didn't she just shout at her coach or an official? There was plenty of time to do so.

ckx mlkacm wrote:

If Regan knew the laps were off, why didn't she just shout at her coach or an official? There was plenty of time to do so.

It has already been explained in this thread that the officials were told that the laps were off, and that they told the individual to shut up, so what makes you believe that a) the runner did not say something, and b) the officials would have listened if she had? This is 100% the fault of the officials and nobody else shares in the blame even a little bit.

she was in the middle of a race. But if you were there, you'd know that other people told the officials. and the officials told them to shut up. Nobody is disputing that Regan knew the correct number of laps. That is an established fact at this point. Her coach was calling out the correct number of laps to her every lap of the race. Many people saw it, and saw her acknowledge it. What is in dispute is whether the error by the officials should give Cheadle the win. And whether Regan should have ignored what she knew to be the correct number of laps in favor of what the officials were saying was the correct number of laps. And for a distance runner, there is only one right answer. You're trained over and over to always run the correct number laps no matter what. You're not trained to go when you hear the bell because THAT'S NOT A RULE. it's just not a thing!! I swear, it's like you people don't even run. wait, DO you guys run? like, y'know, track?

Anyone know the names of the officials involved?

ckx mlkacm wrote:

If Regan knew the laps were off, why didn't she just shout at her coach or an official? There was plenty of time to do so.

Well, it is not the job of the athletes to correct the officials, and often they get chewed out if they try. Moreover, when I'm running 25 laps at race effort, things get fuzzy. I suspect that the person handling the lap counter started with it on 24 instead of 25, as someone noted before, and was a lap off all the way. Early on the runners probably recognized the problem, but by the end I don't know if I would. Hell, half the time I don't even notice hearing a single split.

This just seems like one of those things that cannot be fixed retrospectively in a way that is fair to everyone. Bummer for the girls racing.

tomato tomato wrote:

THANK YOU!! The rule is ***not*** that the bell means is the last lap. So can everyone please stop saying something that's not true? The rule is that the bell should be rung on the last lap. That's not even *close* to the same thing. I guess if the someone forgets to ring the bell, there isn't a final lap? of course not!! The *rules* say that Regan is the winner. The idiot officials said that Cheadle was the winner. That's why it's a problem. The officials made two huge mistakes: miscounting the laps and declaring the wrong winner. I'm shocked that there isn't a system in place for rectifying that.

Actually, that is the rule. When the Lap Counter signals the final lap of the race, that is the final lap of the race. There's a reason that the NAIA lap counting issue and the NCAA lap counting issue were solved in the EXACT same fashion.

It's an official error. It is a judgement call which cannot be overturned.

It's not a judgement call. Whether a runner impeded another runner could be a judgement call. Whether the runners ran 24 laps or 25 laps is a question of fact, not a judgement call.

not a judgement call wrote:

pogo wrote:

Actually, that is the rule. When the Lap Counter signals the final lap of the race, that is the final lap of the race. There's a reason that the NAIA lap counting issue and the NCAA lap counting issue were solved in the EXACT same fashion.

It's an official error. It is a judgement call which cannot be overturned.

It's not a judgement call. Whether a runner impeded another runner could be a judgement call. Whether the runners ran 24 laps or 25 laps is a question of fact, not a judgement call.

That is not the rule. I looked it up again just to make sure Here's the rule book:http://www.ncaapublications.com/p-4360-2015-2016-cross-country-track-field-rules.aspx

You can go ahead and take your foot out of your mouth now.

sorry "not a judgment call". my comment was directed at the poster you were responding to, not at you. you seem to get it.

so the NCAA gets away with this bad decision and Regan now has no recourse? The coach protested and lost, is that the end of it?

tomato tomato wrote:

It's not a judgement call. Whether a runner impeded another runner could be a judgement call. Whether the runners ran 24 laps or 25 laps is a question of fact, not a judgement call.

That is not the rule. I looked it up again just to make sure Here's the rule book:

http://www.ncaapublications.com/p-4360-2015-2016-cross-country-track-field-rules.aspx

You can go ahead and take your foot out of your mouth now.[/quote]

Mr Tomato, you're still wrong:

"The start of the final lap of the event leader shall be signaled by the firing of a pistol or the ringing of a bell. All subsequent competitors shall be notified of their final lap or leg." Rule 3, Section 18

Find me an instance in the book where it says something about an incorrect bell ringing be overruled on the fly.

I repeat, if you are SO, SO RIGHT, then why did the NAIA and NCAA meets end with results from one lap remaining?

This particular instance was treated as a judgement call, a non-reversible, incorrectable error, by rule. You are free to be wrong and disagree, but the proof is in the results.

Here's the full section (emph. added): "A lap counter shall be appointed to notify each competitor of the number of laps that still need to be completed by that competitor. Adequate lap counters must be provided to accurately count laps and provide notification for each runner in a distance race of more than two laps by gender, or for each leg on a team within a relay race, by recording the time over each lap of the athletes or teams for whom the lap counter is responsible. The lap counter(s) shall confirm to the head umpire, through an appropriate reporting method, that all competitors have completed the prescribed number of laps. The start of the final lap of the event leader shall be signaled by the firing of a pistol or the ringing of a bell. All subsequent competitors shall be notified of their final lap or leg."

The rule does not say the last lap begins when the bell is rung. It says that the bell will tell the runners of the final lap. That's different.

http://www.soconsports.com/fls/4000/socon/members_only/Rules/2013-14/XC_Track_2013-14.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=4000

Pogo wrote:

Mr Tomato, you're still wrong:

"The start of the final lap of the event leader shall be signaled by the firing of a pistol or the ringing of a bell. All subsequent competitors shall be notified of their final lap or leg." Rule 3, Section 18

Find me an instance in the book where it says something about an incorrect bell ringing be overruled on the fly.

I repeat, if you are SO, SO RIGHT, then why did the NAIA and NCAA meets end with results from one lap remaining?

This particular instance was treated as a judgement call, a non-reversible, incorrectable error, by rule. You are free to be wrong and disagree, but the proof is in the results.

A judgement call is a situation where two individuals could draw different conclusions based on the same facts. Pass interference in football is a judgement call. Two people could both have a clear view of a play, and both could agree on exactly what happened during the play, but they could still have different opinions as to whether the actions of the player constitute pass interference.

The number of laps remaining in a race is not a judgement call. If provided two officials with the same set of facts, they would not disagree as to how many laps remained in the race.

The decision during the race in question was a mistake, not a judgement call. The number of laps remaining in a race is a question of fact, not a question of judgment.

Pogo wrote:

Mr Tomato, you're still wrong:

"The start of the final lap of the event leader shall be signaled by the firing of a pistol or the ringing of a bell. All subsequent competitors shall be notified of their final lap or leg." Rule 3, Section 18

What if the bell had accidently been rung on lap four? Would this race have been 1000 meters?

Regan ran the race distance and was the first across the line. It's completely absurd to penalize her because of an official's mistake. If anything, give two first place medals: one for the 4800 and one for the 5000.

Or what if they rang the bell for a runner 150 meters behind and then for the rest?

what is scary is that now there is a precedence set and they will use this decision as a basis to resolve future issues, more wrongs don't make it right