Depends on the criteria: # of world & U.S. records, # of global championship medals, national titles, big wins, career length, etc. Would love to have a time machine for a series of match races between the best U.S. Milers.
No question, Steve Scott was a great Miler:
HRE wrote:
Ryun did not have World Championships to compete in. There was only the Olympics that "counted" as people seem to be using the term.. In 1964 he was a high school kid so I'd argue that realistically the meet that counted for him was the Trials. He had no real chance of a medal in '64. By Munich he was past his prime but still may have medalled if he'd been advanced to the finals after falling in his heat. That's not an uncommon practice though obviously not a given.
That leaves Mexico City as his one race that counted that was run at or close to the prime of his career. Even then he was likely past his peak as he'd had mono earlier that year and there had been some question as to whether he'd even be able to make the team. And Mexico City was not an even playing field for distance runners. Of the 15 medals won at distances beyond the 800 only 4 were won by athletes who had not grown up at high altitudes and only 2 of those medals were better than bronze. Ryun ran a tremendous race in Mexico. That people see an Olympic silver medal as "underperforming" is really a tribute to how great he was at his best.
Why does Ryun not get credit for making 1972 Munich team in nearly two events?
You have to applaud Steve Scott's consistency. 5th @ 1976 Oly trials, and close again in 1992!!!!!!!!!!!
Ryun did try run the 800m at the Olympics but he didn't qualify. He finished 4th in the 72 U.S. Olympic Trials in 1:45 after winning his heat and semi.
He left his best racing in low key dual meets.
Track124 wrote:
He left his best racing in low key dual meets.
As opposed to...? A race that happens once every 4 years?
There were no indoor world championships or outdoor world championships. There was no world cup.
This is stupid logic that is often repeated.
Qualifying for 3 olympic teams, one of which was as a teenager, and earning a silver medal in another, seems to be some evidence that he did more than leave his best racing in "low key dual meets."
That is another interesting characterization. "Low key dual meets". Like the USA vs USSR dual meet of 1964 which had over 50,000 people in attendance? Dual meets were not low key back then. Apart from the Olympics, they were 'it'.
Bad Wigins wrote:
ventolin^3 wrote:... with a mentality which took incredible punishment beyond today's belief !
That mentality is precisely the advantage conferred by amphetamines and opiates.
No testing, no comparison. Scott and Webb were tested and passed.
No proof or evidence, no reason to believe what you suggest.
runningart2004 wrote:
Ryun did all his stuff on cinders too. But he underperformed in big races. My rankings would go:
Scott
Ryun
Webb
Holman
Liquori
Holman is an odd case. Best mid distance guy we had in the 90s, always had strange things happen in US Championships.
Also, there were guys running lots of high mileage in the 90s...Kennedy and Williams.
Alan
Scott finished 10th & 5th in the Olympics. The first of which he was the second fastest miler ever. I'd call that an under performance. Seems strange to rank him above Ryun because you think Jim underperformed.
Yep. 6'03"super miler Jim Ryun had his Olympic career matched by 5'03 Manzano. Manzano faced much stiffer competition too.
logician wrote:
Track124 wrote:He left his best racing in low key dual meets.
As opposed to...? A race that happens once every 4 years?
There were no indoor world championships or outdoor world championships. There was no world cup.
This is stupid logic that is often repeated.
Qualifying for 3 olympic teams, one of which was as a teenager, and earning a silver medal in another, seems to be some evidence that he did more than leave his best racing in "low key dual meets."
That is another interesting characterization. "Low key dual meets". Like the USA vs USSR dual meet of 1964 which had over 50,000 people in attendance? Dual meets were not low key back then. Apart from the Olympics, they were 'it'.
Just adding to your point here, Ryun won four NCAA or AAU national championships and two Olympic Trials at the 1500/mile. Those were also not low key dual meets. He won everything there is to win at the time except the Olympics.
If your criteria is consistency and length of career, yes. For world domination, no American miler can touch Ryun from 1966-67. But after that he was woefully inconsistent. Peaked at 20 which is unfortunate. Both Scott and Ryun have silver medals -- no small feat. But both have major disappointments attached to them. Ryun, the huge loss to Keino and his quick decline. Scott his poor showing at home in the Los Angeles Olympics -- ran far below his capability. Pick 'em depending on your criteria. Webb was just as talented as Scott/Ryun but he never came close to medaling in any championship and his career was riddled with inconsistency.
Webb didn't underperform at any big meets before 2008. He performed at or better than his expected level at every USA/World meet and ran well at some big Golden League meets as well. He was never really ranked higher than 5-7 but he ran them to win. The 1500 was stacked in 2007.
Scott kills everyone in longevity... but he had the advantage over Ryun of being in the pro era.
Well he made the dumbest move of all time in the 2005 world champs, so there's that.
Probably because Dave Wottle actually made the team in the 800/1500 and won a gold medal in the former. Ryun probably could have doubled as well, but he ran a stupid race in the 800 Olympic Trials final.
midwestern miler wrote:
Well he made the dumbest move of all time in the 2005 world champs, so there's that.
He wasn't even expected to make the final that year. Once he was in he had nothing to lose.
Track124 wrote:
Ryun did try run the 800m at the Olympics but he didn't qualify. He finished 4th in the 72 U.S. Olympic Trials in 1:45 after winning his heat and semi.
He left his best racing in low key dual meets.
I don't understand your point. I am not sure YOU understand your point.
The WR was equaled at the 1972 Olympic Trials by Wottle who subsequently won the Olympic 800m. Wottle (now Olympic Champion) also made the 1500m team, but was eliminated in the semifinals.
So how is it that 4th in 1:45 was bad? (one second off the WR and eventual Olympic Champion)
Also, you do realize that the dual meets ended for Ryun three yrs earlier? Right?
In 1972 Ryun had the THREE fastest mile times EVER run (3:51.3 WR, 3:51.1 WR, 3:52.8 3rd fastest) and the 3:33.1 1500m WR.
His Mile WR lasted 8 yrs and his 1500m WR lasted 7 yrs.
If your opinion is that someone else was better, that is fine, but base it on facts.
HardLoper wrote:
midwestern miler wrote:Well he made the dumbest move of all time in the 2005 world champs, so there's that.
He wasn't even expected to make the final that year. Once he was in he had nothing to lose.
Cool. It laid the foundation of being a headcase in World Champs/Olympics.
Ailvila wrote:
Yep. 6'03"super miler Jim Ryun had his Olympic career matched by 5'03 Manzano. Manzano faced much stiffer competition too.
And if we were to judge people solely on their best medal earned ONLY in the Olympics, they would be equals.
Do yourself a favor. Look up a video of Ryun's WR races from 1967 or 1968. Look at the tracks. Manzano has some amazing accomplishments, but is about the same time for 800m and "only" .5 secs or so faster at 1500m and mile.
Look at those tracks and those rabbits and tell me that Manzano has a better CV.
midwestern miler wrote:
HardLoper wrote:He wasn't even expected to make the final that year. Once he was in he had nothing to lose.
Cool. It laid the foundation of being a headcase in World Champs/Olympics.
in which world champs/olympics? in case you didn't know he only ran one more and did pretty well.
newname wrote:
Bad Wigins wrote:Ryun was one of those "talent" kids who starts running records right off the bat, plus doping was legal in his day so you never know.
Steve Scott only ran 4:16 in high school, but ended up 4 seconds faster than Ryun. And at the very least he couldn't pop speed or opiates before racing like it was in the old days. So he had to work for it more than Ryun. He earned it. Faster + worked harder = greater.
Webb maybe could contend for the title but not Ryun.
I hesitate to give your comments a rerun, but I am curious what opiates you believe are taken (or were taken in the era you are discussing) as PEDs?
Also, why do you believe it is clever to make a pun out of Wiggins' name by misspelling it? I understand "Bad Wiggins" as a pun, but why misspell it?
Still waiting for "Bad Wigins" to explain the advantage that opiates confer or who has ever used them. And explain his inane handle.
Hitmonlee wrote:This is going to piss you off but Johnny Gray would probably beat him over 800, and Duane Solomon and Nick Symonds would be interesting
i bet he wouda luved having johnny pace him to 600 in something like 74-flat/low & then hold on as best possible with his incredible 1500 endurance
You probably think he could outrun David Rudisha though
100% right
6' 3 greater speed endurance haha
you never heard the oft-quoted :
"a good big un usually beats a good little un"
scott was in shape to break mile wr in '83
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=tEwMeRek8b4
he ran 3'49.4 off a 1st lap where he got huge kick sideways pushing him out to lane 4 !!!
this killed his momentum & he went thru in a pedestrian ~ 59-flat
on top of that, he ran at least 15m extra thru running wide on bends ( chaotic race )
just from extra distance run he shouda run
3'49.48 * ( 1609.344 / 1624.344 ) = 3'47.36
the huge bump at the start musta cost at least 1/2 s & easily that again from pedestrian start + uneven pace
he was capable that day of
3'46-low
RIP: D3 All-American Frank Csorba - who ran 13:56 in March - dead
RENATO can you talk about the preparation of Emile Cairess 2:06
Running for Bowerman Track Club used to be cool now its embarrassing
Rest in Peace Adrian Lehmann - 2:11 Swiss marathoner. Dies of heart attack.
Hats off to my dad. He just ran a 1:42 Half Marathon and turns 75 in 2 months!
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year