Robby Andrews leaves NJ/NY TC and Gags to return to Jason Vigilante

rojo wrote:

he's no threat here wrote:

No one cares. He will never return to form and leaving the first system that showed promise in years is a mistake.

I'll bet on Matt Elliott before I bet on andrews in the 1500.

2) I'll bet you as much money as you want - up to $50,000 - on the Robby Andrews/Matt Elliott bet for 2016 Olympics. I'll even give you 1.5 odds. We both put up the money. I put up 1.5 as much. If one makes the Olympics for the US and the other doesn't, the other collects. If neither make it (or both make it), no one collects. Please email me at

robertjohnson@letsrun.com

how much you want to bet.

Someone please take this bet.

speed is over-rated wrote:

Rojo,

How do we know Andrews doesn't have the speed to compete world class at 800m? Symmonds appeared to be similar in ability and progressed to 1:42 over his career. Is 1:42 and silver not world class?

I would even argue andrews has better quarter speed then symmonds.

And an argument for another day, does andrews have enough endurance to be world class at 1500m?

You make some good points.

Symmonds did run 142 and did get the silver, which is an incredible accomplishment. But as we said in 2012, which pissed Symmonds off, it's incredibly hard to medal when everyone is on their games.

The 800 up front though is just unreal right now. Symmonds got his medal when the big boys were out in 2013 (no Rudisha, no Amos).

In the 1500, yes if the big boys are on their game (no American is beating Kiprop, MacDaddy and Kiplagat if they are on), it's similarly tough but I think a) it's easier to screw things up as a 1500 runner training wise and b) the final can be tactical which gives everyone a fighting chance.

Yes, Andrews late moves in the 800 could maybe sneak him a bronze like Rich Kenah in 1997. Next time I talk to Vig, I'll ask him more about Andrews speed and see if he'll go on the record about it. Vig isn't a big press guy though so i'm not confident he'll want to share it but I can always ask. I do know that he views him as a 1500 guy.

If I'm Vig, here's what I do with him. I run him in a bunch of college meets. Even 4:05 meets. Let him destroy guys in 3:58-4:05 races. Get some confidence, get used to racing. Opening up in some big race where he struggles in the back will be a big mistake.

That's what they did his first year as a pro and it was awful. Don't open in some big race. Let him work his way up slowly.

Talent DOES go away.

Gary Oldman wrote:

Talent DOES go away.

Turning pro early , flip flop coaches , sub par racing , man without a plan.

With his late in the race surge tactics that worked in college , Robby realized you have to be in the race for that tactic to work with the big boys.

Maybe , just maybe the translation to the pro's has been to much, the shock and awe of real competition emotionally has left him wondering , do I really have it?

That 650m at the back followed by a furious last 150 to run 1.45.xx doesn't work past the ncaa's.

Rojo

Gags tried that at 15/mile and he dnf ed or went out the back

Where were you? Not following along the last two years?

That is the flaw,he will not stick his nose in there and compete

At all , he lost that edge while still with Gig

Know your timeline and read a scorecard

Robby seems more like a man without a race than anything else. 1000m might be the distance he's geared for. At 800m he doesn't show the assertiveness to go hot for a first lap. At 1500m he loses the focus to hang for 3 laps. Until they solve those two issues, he could just be in no man's land.

I do agree, though, that his shot at making an Olympic team seems to be better in the 800m. That could be where he's headed, too. It's more likely he runs 1:44x than 3:34x. He seems more geared to handle the 800m rounds than the guys he'd go against there, as well. We get obsessed with the "if he can use that 800m speed in the 1500m, he'd be a monster" mentality. It works for some guys...not all (lots of good examples, Wheating is currently the best example). They can pop off a fast time, but in the tactical races they get buried. In the 800m the kick is really just slowing down less...in the 1500m, the kick is actually running faster, increasing turnover. Big difference.

I'm thinkin with the several years of poor racing/performance his getting back on top of things is going to be a mental thing. He lost the 'habit' of winning and has to find it again. Big uphill battle methinks. I'm a big fan but this will be an uphill venture. I don't think its just a matter of doing some workouts - even if they approach historical killers.

I also think the observation:

"I always have the feeling that when professional athletes go coach hopping that they are looking for motivation externally to replace motivation that wanes within."

is close to the mark ...

As mentioned, the problem for Robbie has been a reliance on his kick. When he gets into races where people take off with 600-800m to go (which doesn't happen enough since El G retired 10 years ago) he will simply get dropped. Vig (or any coach for that matter) needs to develop the confidence in Robbie to hang for that third part of the race, if he is going to be a 1500m guy - easier said than done.

The 1.44 and 3.34 he ran a few years ago says that ability is there, is the training background there to move up? I would focus on the 1500m for this year while he is develoiping a better endurance background, then decide next year his options (much like Martinez does on the women's side). I recall Steve Cram running 1.42.8 back in the day, and he was no faster than Symmonds (officially anyway) over 400m, and he was definitely a mile/1500m guy. Not sure what that says about Symmonds except that the depth can't be all that good if a silver medalist at 800m can't run faster for 800m than a miler from 30 years ago.

The reason Robby looks so good at 1000 meters as opposed to 800 now is two fold.

1. 1000M marks are soft so when folks see sub 2:20 for anyone they think that is good

You can run 2:18 off 1:52 flat so it never hurts a guy who is 1:44.x good

2:17 for Andrews is like 1:50 and 27 , he is never uncomfortable

2. It is such an off event, no one runs it at a high level, going by in 1:48 is stretching it for anyone in America . Andrews NEVER RUNS 800 races at 50 Point or even 51 flat out and that is an issue, Even when he ran 1:44.x he was out in 52 I believe and closed evenly whihc makes others look like they are standing still

Unless he can run 50 points and 51 flat and hold on, he is never beating any high level comp , maybe he will beat some U.S. guys, but we are pretty weak right this second at 800

Even if you are observant and look at his 3:34 1500 race, get a watch and really look at that, he is out in about 1:56/57 way back and that is easy for him, then he only has to run a wicked 300M which he did . In a strecthed out painful race he gives away way too much ground and is not connected.

When 3:34/35s become the tactical types, he will get lost in those too as the guys are much stronger generally OR much faster at 800 at least for now.

Right now there are too many holes in his game, some should have easily been fixed in past three years, like the still letting him run from the back. He apparently just will not do it any other way. Some coach needs to say, you run races from further back than 4th over, I will not enter you again , period,that will/might fix it.

And maybe that will not even do it, this should have been addressed years ago.

There a lot here, but this sport waits for no one, guys have outstripped him by so far and so many can beat him, I just do not know how you leap frog back over all those while expecting them to what? Not improve either?

FloPRO wrote:

...but leaving Kyle Merber...

Noooooooooooooooooo

*breath*

Nooooooooooooooooo

You guys are all missing the point. Robbie is leaving Kyle? they're breaking up? Say it ain't so. How will this affect the psyche of the rising talent, Kyle Merber. Will he be left devastated, never to take another step? Let's hope not. My condolences to Kyle. Hang in there buddy.

Allen Webb Jr.

Grow up Robbie

Corky wrote:

Allen Webb Jr.

Grow up Robbie

Can he swim?

The reality is that no one from NJ/NY ran well last year--no one. And now that they are taking 1:52 guys, wtf!, why would Robby wanna stick around for high school practice? He needs a better structure than what is happening at NJ/NY. He is making a good move. He needs an OTC environment, not whatever this NJ/NY team is morphing into.

I believe Robbie will be living at home or near home because he said his Dad will be overseeing the workouts Vig is writing. So I think the structure is in question still.

Andrews needs to leave NY/NJ due to their lack of talent pool/improvement. If I remember, he partially picked them in the first place b/c he would be close to home. So this move back home keeps him mentally comfortable at a time when he needs it. To all the people saying moving home is a bad idea, look at Will Leer. Where does the rhetoric about Andrews being a b*itch fit in with Leer's huge improvement while living at home? Maybe he's just smart like Leer is.

Andrews could probably get better by going to Schumacher or the OTC, but there's no way they'd take him in the state he's in. His decision to move to his home environment is pragmatic considering he needs to leave considering the state of the club, be in a place where he can be mentally healthy, and wouldn't be taken by anyone else much better than NY/NJ who would look twice at him.

Leer is from Minnesota and lives in LA.

Too big of a contract out of college and it seems to have been renewed.

No hunger, motivation, or pride.

NJ/NY was way to lax with only meeting a couple one or two times a week and Gags is too old to babysit this huge group (nor should he have to).

Needs a drill sergeant for a coach who is super organized for him.

I do not think his dad or Vig are the answer.

Rowlands?