Yo Yo Pa wrote:
Hell with it.
Why not just exclude the Kenyans and Ethiopians and be done with it?
I don't see other nations/places with lots of folks born at altitude dominating distance running (Mexico, Colorado, Nepal, Switzerland, etc.).
This is ridiculous.
Agree.
Bill Rodger's is an idiot.
Bill Rodgers is too.
Mo Farah and Paula Radcliffe both born and raised at sea level.
Thank goodness there is an agreement here that Bill Rodgers was overall pretty wrong.
Shades of brown wrote:
Perhaps it's already been mentioned on the thread, but the Japanese manage to have 2:06 marathoners w/out being born at altitude. And what about Ritz's 2:07 at Chicago. Sure, being born at altitude probably confers an advantage, but Rodgers, as much as he trained, was never going to approach 2:06-2:07 even. The only time he ever legitimately broke 2:10 was at Boston. But he was certainly great in his era.
Another advantage for marathoners is being slight of stature, which Rodgers was. Should we have separate classes for marathoners over and under 6' tall? What about a weight cutoff at 130 lbs?
What Rodgers said was not unreasonable given the categories that we already have in place with little or no logical justification. We have men and women categories, we have under age 20, and over age 40 categories to name a few.
In this light there is nothing wrong with adding in an altitude born and a non altitude born category. I am also in favor of having weight categories in distance running as they have in boxing or weightlifting or rowing. Classes such as light weight, middle weight, heavy weight, and super heavyweight would be great to see in a marathon. Height or leg length categories would be good to have as well. Adding all of these extra categories would increase interest in the sport in terms of media coverage which would be a good thing for sponsorship etc...
rukol wrote:
Reavis wrote:I recall Sev (coach Bob Sevene)
Why abbreviate it to Sev if you are then going to write the first and last name? ;P
+1
Thank you
Couldn't disagree more. Categories like these dilute the sport. And focusing in on altitude like Rodgers does is undermining to the achievements of Ethiopian and Kenyan runners.
drugs and steroids are not remotely comparable to the idea that being born in a certain area in the world should somehow dismiss or diminish your accomplishments. These assertions are a rejection of everything distance running culture is about. Non altitude born runners, if you want to compete with the best, put your head down and work harder!
oh please wrote:
In other words, perpetuating the thought that everyone should get a medal.
There are only two things that should matter in a race:
1. Who is the absolute fastest?
2. How fast did you run?
Anything else is trying to split the pie up so that "everyone" wins. We already do this with gender and age groups. News flash: old people and women will never be as fast as younger males. What do you expect when you join a running race?
You forgot:
3. Who's using PEDs?
combination of factors wrote:
The east Africans have a combination of factors in their favor as runners. Birth at altitude. Growing up at altitude. Growing up in a pedestrian environment instead of riding in cars everywhere. Typical slender build. Diet favorable towards athleticism (less processed foods and sugars). Working and playing outdoors instead of sitting and watching tv all day or video games or sitting in a cubicle all day. Even poverty which makes running their ticket to a better life. Etc, etc, etc.
Oh sure...with all those factors in their favor they shouldn't have to be doping 😠None of that stuff means much when you realize not all is well and good:
A reported *40* doping postives since 2011 and allegations of bribery & corruption ("Athletics doping: Kenya misses WADA deadline." Dan Roan/BBC Sports/021116).
http://m.bbc.com/sport/athletics/35551486Furthermore, neither Kenya nor Ethiopia are part of the ABP program because of no WADA-accredited labs in the region to conduct the blood tests. But yet those "dreaded" Russian T&F athletes get banned at Rio while the fan-favored Kenyans get to compete...how nice 😕
justsyinag wrote:
Couldn't disagree more. Categories like these dilute the sport. And focusing in on altitude like Rodgers does is undermining to the achievements of Ethiopian and Kenyan runners.
OK, I would go for just one single open category then. 1st past the finishing line wins with no other winners.
Men vs. women is fine.
Don't be silly. More arbitrary categories like altitude would of course dilute the sport, but there are some categories that are necessary.
rojo wrote:
Toni Reavis has a very interesting piece up this week on his site tonireavis.com where he shares an email exchange with Bill Rodgers.
http://tonireavis.com/2015/01/04/bill-rodgers-speaking-of-altitude/#more-12619Bill Rodgers wrote:Should altitude issue be addressed, especially since 99% of world is sea-level born? I categorize runners by sea-level versus sea-level and altitude-born vs altitude-born. I have always thought altitude-born athletes only needed that extra factor to defeat all sea-level born. To take home the money perhaps there has been some significant drug use by altitude-born. Interesting that no significant journalism exploring these issues has come from America as it was Germans who explored Russian and Kenyan cheating.
Then Toni Reavis replied:
Reavis wrote:
TR: Interesting suggestion to separate sea-level born from altitude-born. I recall Sev (coach Bob Sevene) telling me years ago how bodybuilding distinguishes between drug-free and drug-enhanced competitions using polygraph and urinalysis testing. I have gone over the IAAF lists from the last three years and the all-time list for the marathon.
In 2014 top sea-level born was Kohei Matsumura of Japan at #86 with 2:08:09
In 2013, Kazuhiro Maeda of Japan at # 62 with 2:08:00
In 2012, Henryk Szost of Poland at # 70 with 2:07:39
I never really thought all that much about 'born at altitude'. I always just assumed 'genetics'. Or is it both? If a Kenyan baby is born at sea level, will it not be as good as one born at altitude? I wonder what Ross Tucker or David Epstein would say about that.
This is a huge factor and has been discussed by many scientists trying to explain why Eastern Africans have no physical advantages over the rest of the world. Never the less it has to be a factor. So what do we do with someone who has no birth certificate?
i think its safe to assume that the idea is stupid and should be dismissed.