Renato Canova: Any Thoughts on Mosop's 2:06 in Xiamen Win Today?

RC is never joking on LR

I only posted once about how bad this forum is and I have not posted it on any other thread.

True, there needs to be openness about doping from coaches and athletes but every thread involving Mr. Renato Canova devolves into doping speculation and is drove off topic from the original post.

You say I contribute nothing to the forum. How do you know that? I think you'll find that I post under a registered handle unlike you.

Blitzplay wrote:

I only posted once about how bad this forum is and I have not posted it on any other thread.

Then I mistook you for another guy. Sorry about that.

If you really know what is going on in China, you will know it is the true statement.

The Chinese Athletic Association has taken great measures to remove doping from this sport. However, if you only read from BBC or CNN, you will never know.

Perhaps not many guys from China or know the situations in China are active in this forum.

Renato had one post here regarding the current distance program in China. Distance running has never been popular in China. For most people, soccer or basketball is the primary interest of sport.

Renato did not empathize the financial factor which contributes to the lack of good runners for the past 10 years. Overall distance running is a grueling subject. With the China's economy boom in the past few decades, most people can make a good life without much sacrifice. For example, a national-level distance runner makes about 100k yuan (China currency) a year while a IT engineer can easily make that money. Liu Xiang is an exception. However, not everyone can become Liu Xiang.

Aside from all the doping mumbo-jumbo, who coaches Mosop now?

What's his training like at this point in his carreer?

Mr canova chooses to engage in letsrun doping discussions

He also has some controversial views on the lack of effectiveness of peds

For example:He claimed that steroid was the main cycling drug rather than blood doping

He has also flip-flopped on the issue of whether ma's army were doped or not

You clearly don´t know much about sports in China, otherwise you would know that the biggest sport by far is table tennis.

When you say table tennis, I almost laughed for about one minute.

I am 29 years old. I spent 22 years in China. My family are still in China. Be honest with you, badminton is more popular in China than table tennis.

Guys, you need to read news other than CNN and BBC.

Well, we know you lie. "EPO doesn't work on Kenyans." LOL

Sure, and Kenyans would never even take an aspirin. LOL

Yep, China. One of the world's main players in the fight against unfair use of PED's in sports.

It's sh*theads like Renato who have ruined athletics. Greedy shi*balls who go wherever they can to avoid off-testing among other tricks, all for a buck. And for the glory of being a "great coach".

Well, we know you lie. "EPO doesn't work on Kenyans." LOL

Sure, and Kenyans would never even take an aspirin. LOL

Yep, China. One of the world's main players in the fight against unfair use of PED's in sports.

It's sh*theads like Renato who have ruined athletics. Greedy shi*balls who go wherever they can to avoid off-testing among other tricks, all for a buck. And for the glory of being a "great coach".[/quote]

I'm pretty sure it was the "elite" kenyans which he said EPO has little to no effect on. He also had some understandable explanations to back it up , but as we saw with matthew kisorio, that may not be completely true.

Does he maybe have some bias towards some athletes and countires, sure.

What I do know is that he has very valuable information on training that many people want to read. Where else can we see the training and preparation of a newly minted Olympic or WC medalist with such detail? He has the ability to explain how and why his training programs for the best athletes in the world work, and writes it here for free. When people constantly write negative responses it is frustrating for the people who truly want to read what he knows and enjoy finding out what his athletes do.

lc428 wrote:

When you say table tennis, I almost laughed for about one minute.

I am 29 years old. I spent 22 years in China. My family are still in China. Be honest with you, badminton is more popular in China than table tennis.

Guys, you need to read news other than CNN and BBC.

I´m sorry, but you´re lying here. If you had spent any time in China you´d see people playing table tennis f*ng everywhere. My brother was assistant captain on the Swedish national team in the 90s, and the best Swedes were superstars in China.

I once thought that Canova's contributions to the board and the sport gave him a sort of pass for flip-flopping around with absolute statements about doping. I now realize that my own exuberance for charisma and inspiration was clouding my judgement.

I now think, quite bluntly, that his style is a sort of mask, or fog screen. I have no idea what he's doing behind the screen. I do know he puts up a helluva screen, that, if one reads carefully, is a screen full of sketchy statements indicative of the type of personality who will go down lying and squirming and insisting on his righteousness, to the end.

He also is the man behind a lot of very exciting performances. Lance's performances, too, were incredibly exciting to the naive viewer. I'm not saying Canova is Lance, but he could be, and he has done basically nothing to show that he isn't. He, in fact, has done only what Lance did: insist he was clean verbally, while inviting and cooperating fully with testing, and praising the efforts of testers, and downplaying the importance of the cheating. My prediction is that he'll go down, along with some of the other heroes of coaching in Kenya. They're so much like what we saw in cycling where everyone agreed to lie until finally the walls crumbled. Like we all do, at some level, these guys systematically lie to themselves on a bigger stage. At some point, for the sake of a career in which they are very skilled at what matters (producing fast running times and clean drug tests) they committed to the cause, committed to the lie, and decided to go all-out with it until the roof caves in on the whole operation.

I don't necessarily blame him for doing it. It's a valid tactic to take the rules that you're given, and the incompetent/corrupt enforcers of the rules, and exploit them - always fueled by the fear that the Russians or the Chinese or the Americans will be doping better than you. With Canova, I don't necessarily blame him. But I sure as hell am not going to necessarily believe him. If he wants to say my 'skeptical disbelief' is a bunch of bullshits, then fine. He won't be the first pathological liar to use a cute line like that to desperately cling to the lie for another day.

Nutella1 wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

China is, at the moment, the most clean Country in the World.

Can't tell if serious or not.

I am stunned.

Don´t be stunned, be sceptical. I wish Mr Canova would have had this stunning overview in Kenya as well. It is impossible that he knows what´s going on throughout China or in the whole wide world.

Read for example Ines Greipel´s "No limit", former world-class sprinter; some facts from the book:

- numerous labs, China is the cheapest, world´s leading producer of PEDs (99% of all steroids and 80% of all growth hormones)

- elites use to train in military bases to get in shape: no entrance for international inspectors

- scientific quest for hidden doping.

Fortunately, I don't care about the consideration ignorant people have about myself. Who knows me, knows the truth, who doesn't know can think what he wants, it's not my problem.

However, when I speak about FACTS, it's very ridiculous and unfair to think they are opinions.

It's a FACT that China, at the moment, has the most strict antidoping program in the World, carried out by the National Antidoping Agency.

It's a FACT that athletes doped were DQ for 4 years by Chinese Government of Sport (the equivalence of Olympic Committee) when the rule was 2 years only.

It's a FACT that coaches of the doped athletes lost their job with the Provinces if had a doped athletes (athletes in China NEVER can have individual choices about training and/or doping, everything comes from their Provincial coaches).

It's a FACT that I never said "Doping doesn't work on Kenyan", but I said "Doping doesn't work with TOP KENYAN / ETHIOPIAN ATHLETES", because I had prooves of WR completely clean.

It's a FACT that there is doping in Kenya at lower level, structured in different way, and I explained this in all the evidence (see my interview with Athleticsillustrated, by Christophe Kensall).

It's a FACT that NEVER there were investigations about the effect of training, while there are a lot of different works (arriving at different conclusions) about the effects of doping. But we can see the effects of doping ONLY if we are able to combine it with the effects of training, AND THIS NEVER WAS AN INTERESTING RESEARCH FOR SCIENTISTS.

It's a FACT that Mathew Kisorio and Rita Jeptoo were caught for doping in OUT OF COMPETITION TESTS IN KENYA, so it's not a fact that in Kenya there are not antidoping controls, but it's a FACT that there are not blood tests only. Howevere, it's a FACT that the positivity of Rita came through a control of urine only, because it's a FACT that EPO can be found in the urine without necessity of blood test.

It's a FACT that from many years I coached top athletes in different parts of the World, so probably I know about Kenya (and now Ethiopia) and China, for example, more than can know people only reading something in newspapers which write only what they want people can know (but don't write what don't want can give people more free opinions), and under this point of view US are the leader for not informing about what happens in the othert part of the World, having the presumption that only US exists, and in any case the rest of the World doesn't have any importance.

It's a FACT that, till now, I coached athletes for 6 WR, 42 medals in WCh and 8 medals in OG, that now I have in Marathon 9 athletes under 2:05:04 for men, that I had 9 athletes under 26'55" in 10000m (and other big numbers in every event of middle distance), so probably I know about their training and what they use something more than people reading newspapers only, 10,000 Miles far.

And, at the end, it's a FACT that in this Website there are plenty idiots, who think doping is the most important reality of sport, instead to have love and passion for promoting, organizing, coaching, supporting and helping this activity, that has the greatest educative value, if explained and teached in correct way (like I Always tried to do, and I continue to do everywhere).

It's a FACT that there are thieves in the World, but I prefer to think that the most part of people are honest, and I don't want to live in a military state.

And it's a FACT that I'm happy for my life, because I had the opportunity to do as profession what was from the beginning (when I was 11y old...) my passion, looking at athletics like a mean for building better life for the athletes that for me are PERSONS before being athletes.

But probably, for people thinking everybody is a cheater, it's a FACT they are not able to think somebody can have as motivation to work for other people, being happy for this opportunity.

Renato Canova wrote:

It's a FACT that China, at the moment, has the most strict antidoping program in the World, carried out by the National Antidoping Agency.

It's a fact that China currently has only four athletes serving doping suspensions.

As someone who coaches Chinese women marathoners, Mr. Canova, do you think that increased strictness in its antidoping program is the main reason Chinese women have virtually disappeared from the top ranks of elite women's marathoning?

runner85 wrote:

What I do know is that he has very valuable information on training that many people want to read. Where else can we see the training and preparation of a newly minted Olympic or WC medalist with such detail? He has the ability to explain how and why his training programs for the best athletes in the world work, and writes it here for free. When people constantly write negative responses it is frustrating for the people who truly want to read what he knows and enjoy finding out what his athletes do.

Yes, but let's face it. Canova coaches the most talented athletes because he has dedicated his life to tracking them down and living with them. People too often mistake coaching the most talented athletes with having the most knowledge. I'm not saying he doesn't have some great ideas, but there are also many good coaches who you won't listen to because they don't have access to the best athletes.

Coach Renato

could you look at my message thread listed below please.

I would like to hear from you where I'm going wrong and what you think I could do to reach my goal. I have a marathon this coming April and starting my 1st week of 15 this week.

Thank you for taking the time in reading this message.

message thread:

Marathon failure - 20miles to finish - Marathon Convert

What I don't like is when somebody, intentionally, wants to use something different from the argument I am speaking about, for confuting my final conclusions.

Where do you find I wrote "China WAS the cleanest Country in the World" ?

I say "China AT THE MOMENT is the cleanest Country in the World", and I give data and numbers supporting this FACT.

You speak about something of more than 20 years ago. Everybody knows China (such as East Germany, Soviet Union, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania) had doping controlled by the State, or, in the case of Chinese, "not tested by the State, and controlled by the Provinces" (the responsibility of Chinese Government of Sport was, in any case, evident).

What happens today, is something different, and nobody must be sceptical.

The main interest of China now is in the organization of big sport events. In few years we had Olympic Games in 2008, World HM Championships in 2010, Asian Games in 2010, Youth Olympic in 2014, and in 2015 we have World Cross Country Championships and WCh (this speaking of Athletics only). For having the opportunity to organize every type of top Championships, China needs to have a very clean image in the sport, at the cost of losing some medal.

When I'm accused not to say the Chinese of Ma were doped, I answer that, in this case, also Chinese coaches of that time (who speak with me in very open way about old doping in China) have some doubt only, but nobody exactly knows, because Ma Juren did everything by himself, without involving Athletic Federation.

You must know there were 3 different systems for doping in the past :

1) Statal doping (URSS, DDR, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, China, India).

The athletes never asked for something enhancing their performances ; everything was directly organized by Federations and the official organisms in charge of sport.

Also, the athletes never could chose their coach, but (like happens today for Teams of Soccer, Basket, Volley, Hockey etc...) must train with the structure of their Federation.

The goal was to obtain records and medals for the image of the Country. In this system, the best athletes didn't have big advantages, but were used for advantages of their Country.

This is what "probably" happened in China too, in the period between 1990 and 2000.

I think that today the statal doping doesn't exist anymore (also if the recent reports about Russia speak about a wide system supported by the Federation and the antidoping agency themselves).

2) Individual doping.

This is organized on individual basis, and was (is) typical of Western Countries.

In this system, are the athletes themselves, not supported by their Federations, to look for some support for their training and their performances, many times legal, sometimes illegal.

The athletes (mainly sprinters, for the reason they are the athletes earning the higher amount of money among the athletes competing on track) chose their coach, their doctor, their physio, their manager, and pay from their pocket the assistance received by all the structure.

In this system, all the structure can have economical advantages if the athletes have better results, since better results = more money.

In my opinion, athletes using individual doping are more guilty than athletes involved in statal doping (many times, in this case, athletes didn't know they used something illegal, because they followed, without asking, all the indications of their coaches, regarding not only training, but also nutrition and medicines they had to take).

3) Doping of ignorance.

This is the case of doping of Kenyan athletes of second level. They don't have a Federation organizing their doping, and (in spite of what many people think) don't have some private management / coach giving them illegal pharmacs (in many cases, they don't have any manager or coach, since their performances are not interesting for managements wanting to earn money with the percentage of 15%).

So, what happens ? They have some physical problem, like every normal person in the World, they go to some local doctor, and, when they say are athletes, the doctor asks them if they have some manager. If they don't have, the doctor tries to have an Agreement with the athlete, giving some medicine for free, but asking 15 or 20% of their income (the most part of unknown Kenyan athletes caught for doping in small Marathons in Asia can go to compete without manager, but with a nominal invitation coming directly from the organizers). In case they have a manager, the doctor asks to pay the medicine, but offers for 5% of the income his "scientific" assistance for not having health problem in the future.

It's not a case that 95% of Kenyan athletes positive are doped with Nandrolone, not with EPO. Athletes doped with EPO are the only one asking themselves something for enhancing their perfromances (Mathew Kisorio, Erupe and now Rita Jeptoo), all the other are victims of their total ignorance, sometimes also of the ignorance of local pharmacists that give them the same tablets they give to other people, without knowing if there is inside some doping substance, or not.

Only who lives in this World, and was able to live the evolution of this system, can know really how is the situation.

Yes, doping exists, but for middle and long distances is very, very much less diffused than what the most part of people thinks.

And, I repeat again, without knowing the physiological effects of top training in altitude for the best African athletes, it's absolutely wrong to hypothesize

the effects of blood doping in this context : not FACTS, but CONJECTURES only (it's not a case that the best Kenyan runners ask for a penal law for putting in jail doped athletes, coaches and managers responsible for these actions against the values of the sport, and this is something happening in Kenya only, because I never read of some of the best athletes of other Countries asking for penal laws for doping in their Country...).

I can't thank you enough for your contributions here. I learn something from you every time you post. Keep up the good work.