Magness also believes Ryan Hall is clean, which he says about very few people.
I also think the same, but magness would need to say just that, considering that he's coaching hall's wife. just sayin'
You know how you can tell when someone doesn't dope?
They have good years and bad years and injuries just like the rest of us.
yesstiles wrote:
You know how you can tell when someone doesn't dope?
They have good years and bad years and injuries just like the rest of us.
OK. Thanks
Training in africa where it is summer is just smart. Winter in the us is not conductive to fast running. Also look at the dirt roads in the rift valley, its paradise.
I am confused as to what you mean by "brings up some serious ethical and medical issues that need to be addressed, not just ignored."
Were you not viewing the LetsRun boards in 2013?
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5126012The above thread was mentioned by many posters as the "greatest thread ever on LetsRun" and there were pages and pages of useful, interesting, intellectual discussion and debate on the topic. Nobody is ignoring these issues, sir. Is there still a lot of unknowns about elite-level distance training and its effect on the thyroid gland? Absolutely. Unfortunately a lot of the debate gets construed in the assumption that those that have had to receive thyroid medication therapy are doing so as a result of other pharmaceutical intervention and maybe that's the case, but it is my belief that many of the elites you mentioned also had a genuine thyroid problem that was not resolving with ample amounts of rest and recovery (that somebody like Anthony Famiglietti claims is the ultimate cure to these problems).
It has been a personal hypothesis of mine for some time that with immense amounts of high-volume, high-intensity endurance training, the thyroid gland and (subsequently) other endocrine systems begin to function less than optimally. There are those that can rest and recover from these thyroid issues, seeing a sub-clinically elevated TSH of say, 4.50, return to a healthy range of 1.00-2.00 for an athlete (Fam for example). Then there are those that may be genetically predisposed to endocrine disorders - these individuals (such as Ryan Hall) begin to experience thyroid issues that are most certainly a product of high-level training over a long period of time and cannot recover or get their TSH values back within a healthy range, no matter the amount of rest and recovery. What do these people do? Refuse treatment on "ethical" grounds because an armchair quarterback on LetsRun says the only reason they are replacing thyroxine is because they are also on a cocktail of testosterone and HGH? It is a quality of life issue.
WADA has completed the studies to ensure that those hypothyroid individuals treated to normal ranges are not reaping any performance gains, so what other standard are we to go by?
The examples are extensive, and more research needs to be put into this area. People that suffer from LONG term illness as a result of training are out there and it is still a mystery. See Geoff Roes blog for an example. I believe that Ryan is a genuine athlete that had an issue that was not resolving with proper rest and recovery and needed treatment. He should not be penalized for this, I feel that he is clean in all senses of the word.
A study of the top American distance runners in the recent past found that the best 5000m (Kennedy), 10000m (Rupp), marathon (Salazar and Hall) revealed that they all used thyroid medication.
There's a study for you. Explain the results of it.
conflicted interests. wrote:
I also think the same, but magness would need to say just that, considering that he's coaching hall's wife. just sayin'
But he always avoids commenting on whether Galen & Mo are clean, whom he also helped coach.
Oh Hall feels tired for a few days after 13 mile tempo runs at 4:50 pace at altitude, in the middle of a 120 mile week, and it's an excuse to take hormone medication to aid his recovery? He's using those drugs to aid his training. He can keep up both the intensity and quantity of his training because he's using drugs. This is cheating! When I was running seriously, I could only run a maximum of 80 miles a week. I'd become tired (normal) and weak if I did more. I had to take a recovery day after a long run, track workout, or race. I had to limit the intensity of my workouts too otherwise I'd get too run down to train for a few days. Would it have been a fair race between Hall and me? Hell no! He's able to train more because he's on recovery drugs.
You do know that Hall is/was HYPERthyroid, not HYPO?
You do know he's taking the drugs to improve his performance right?
From the April 9th thread on thyroid use:
Hall has "hypo" thyroid condition like all the other cheaters. Hypo meaning underperforming:
"Hall had begun to reassess his outlook toward running as he prepared for the Chicago Marathon in the fall of 2010. He felt fatigued, unable to complete his workouts. Later, he discovered that he had an underactive thyroid."
From the NY Times
Whinny Jogger wrote:
You do know that Hall is/was HYPERthyroid, not HYPO?
You are misinformed, that is incorrect.
fred wrote:
From the April 9th thread on thyroid use:
http://ajpregu.physiology.org/content/287/3/R600
This does nothing to add to the argument that elites are supposedly using thyroid hormone as a performance enhancer, it simply confirms the importance of having adequate thyroxine secreted from the thyroid gland. That article absolutely supports that those individuals that are hypothyroid and cannot recover from substantial periods away from physical activity should seek treatment and thyroxine replacement to improve their quality of life - within the athletic spectrum and outside of it as well. It is a vital hormone for all metabolic function. Those treated with hormone replacement are medicated to the normal range; over-medicating with thyroxine has plenty of well-studied performance detriments.
Ethiopia's a great place to train at altitude with hills, dirt roads, and best of all, world class trainers better than anyone in America everywhere. But if he's training on his own, then he's wasting it. None of his performances for years suggests drugs.
These accusations are pointless and stupid for two reasons:
1. Ryan Hall has stated countless times that he puts gods word above everything else. This is very similar to how strongly RICH FRONING is associated with the church. I don't think someone as religious as Ryan Hall or Froning could ever cheat.
2. If he'd be taking PED's, he would look a lot better/BIGGER. He would certainly not be as SCRAWNY as he is.
I think this settles it.
[quote]It Happened to Me Too wrote:
I am confused as to what you mean by "brings up some serious ethical and medical issues that need to be addressed, not just ignored."
Were you not viewing the LetsRun boards in 2013?
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5126012
The above thread was mentioned by many posters as the "greatest thread ever on LetsRun" and there were pages and pages of useful, interesting, intellectual discussion and debate on the topic. Nobody is ignoring these issues, sir. Is there still a lot of unknowns about elite-level distance training and its effect on the thyroid gland? Absolutely. Unfortunately a lot of the debate gets construed in the assumption that those that have had to receive thyroid medication therapy are doing so as a result of other pharmaceutical intervention and maybe that's the case, but it is my belief that many of the elites you mentioned also had a genuine thyroid problem that was not resolving with ample amounts of rest and recovery (that somebody like Anthony Famiglietti claims is the ultimate cure to these problems).
Just because there was a big thread about thyroid hormones, more than a year ago, on a running website does not by any means indicate that the problem has been resolved. There may have been a lot of noise on here, but I bet the vast majority of casual fans are completely unaware of the existence of a thyroid hormone controversy (and I bet the athletes in question like it that way). From all I've read about thyroid hormones, the least one would come away with is a belief that thyroid hormone as a PED, or used in conjunction with other substances as a PED, cannot be ruled out.
Think about it: who were some of the best male US distance runners of the 70s/early 80s? Prefontaine, Shorter, Rodgers, Virgin. Did any of them have thyroid problems? Not that I've ever heard of. And they all trained really hard, to greater or lesser degrees. Then comes Salazar, who finds out he has a thyroid problem later in his career.
What group of runners from more modern times would be analagous to those guys? First came Kennedy, then Rupp and Hall. All of whom have thyroid problems, mysteriously enough. Am I cherry-picking those runners? Hardly. Kennedy is clearly the dominant 5000m guy of the mid-90s, the long-time AR holder. Rupp is clearly the top 5k/10k American (native-born) of recent years (especially 10k), and the 10k AR holder. Hall was clearly the top American-born marathoner for a stretch of several years, 1/2 marathon AR holder and the marathon AR-holder for American-born runners. So you could say, without stretching the truth too much, that the top 3 native-born male American distance runners of the past 20 years all needed to take thyroid hormones. And the top runners of the generation before them didn't.
Given all that, it would take more than a few small studies dug up on Google, and the opinions of a few random people, for the matter to truly have "been addressed".