How do you rank Wilson Kipketer among the greatest men's 800m runners?

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Jck wrote:47.2 feet

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It's getting tricky now, not many 11y old should solve this. Where have you learned all of this science which is involved here? Very impressive.

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ventolin^3 wrote:

[quote]Jck wrote:47.2 feet

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It's getting tricky now, not many 11y old should solve this. Where have you learned all of this science which is involved here? Very impressive.

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jCK wrote:

"book answer is"!!!! wonderful - it seems you understood your problem very well

next time discribe the probleme more exactly. if physics are involved, tell is

for sure 47.2 feet is not "far too big"

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jck wrote:

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jCK wrote:

"book answer is"!!!! wonderful - it seems you understood your problem very well

next time discribe the probleme more exactly. if physics are involved, tell is

for sure 47.2 feet is not "far too big"

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Hey don't steal my username. Make your own.

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reader of the forums wrote:

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ISBN wrote:

Many experts and old athletes, including Clarke at the end of his career, stated that the difference is much nearer to 0.5 per lap.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT2ANRbiiH8&t=25m25s

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Ventolin, you are so annoying.

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ventolin^3 wrote:


no

snell was capable of 1'42-low/mid

guys like kiprugut with a near solo 1'44.5 in mexico / kipkurgat 1'43.9 solo on a windy day / caballo a virtually solo 1'43.5

those last 3 all ran their times after rounds, therefore unrested & negligible drafting or none as in kipkurgat's case

those 3 were intrinsic 1'42-mid/high runs in a 1-off, fully rested tt with pacing to bell

leaving aside snell who was long retired when synthetics came along, coe's 1st record wouda been a ~ 0.25/0.5s improvement if those guys had had their best runs on the circuit & not saved it for championships

as for coe, he had '83 & '87 & both times did not run them

don't talk nonsense about no wc

he had 2 opportunities

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ISBN wrote:

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reader of the forums wrote:

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ISBN wrote:

Many experts and old athletes, including Clarke at the end of his career, stated that the difference is much nearer to 0.5 per lap.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT2ANRbiiH8&t=25m25s

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Actually, what Clarke has actually written down on paper, would seem to contradict what he says years later in a throwaway response on a tv programme.

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reader of the forums wrote:

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ISBN wrote:

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reader of the forums wrote:

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ISBN wrote:

Many experts and old athletes, including Clarke at the end of his career, stated that the difference is much nearer to 0.5 per lap.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT2ANRbiiH8&t=25m25s

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Actually, what Clarke has actually written down on paper, would seem to contradict what he says years later in a throwaway response on a tv programme.

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Nope.

If he wrote that after the interview I linked however, you might have a point.

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There is no other runner, past or present, who has the speed endurance, courage, and championship racing temprement to do what Rudisha did at the 2012 Olympics. NO ONE! He front ran a world record in the Olympic final!

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ventolin^3 wrote:

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ukathleticscoach wrote:Having a brain to run sensible splits is part of being a good athlete

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not if in an era where pacing was frowned on - in US particularly

this was a rare record attempt by him with no help assuming no one was going to live with him going out in 50+ on dirt !!!

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What was his pb when he ran more sensible splits-

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he broke the 880y again in '52 with 1'48.6, but there is no assumption he was in shape as '50

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your flawed reckoning he should have run 1:46 then

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utterly clueless

if you don't think splits of 50+ / 58+ woudn't be coupla seconds quicker off 2s split differential, then you have no clue about the sport

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No, what a surpise he never broke 1:48

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again clueless

he had a 1'47.9pb

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He was a great championship performer (not like you to back someone who actually wins something!) but Harbig used advanced training methods to run much faster even though he came from an earlier time period

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i see you can't read or comprehend

harbig ran on a 500m track which is illegal for records

it's worth in region of 1/4s per lap v a proper 400m track

that gets harbig's time out to 1'47.1

then he had the great luxury of having his main rival leading him to 675m

that's worth 1/2s compared to drafting only to bell

that gets his time in a "standard" tt out to 1'47.6

a time very much within whitfield in his 50+ / 58+ effort

go fetch harbig's best time on a 400m track with help only to bell or even no help as whitfield likely had in his 50+ / 58+

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People should also take into account how Coe revolutionised 800m running - he smashed the old record by seconds, subsequent runners have only trimmed it. His lack of OG holds him back form the top spot but there were no WC's then. Someone said he had a short career. He ran sub 1:44 consistently for a decade. No other runner had such a record

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no

snell was capable of 1'42-low/mid

guys like kiprugut with a near solo 1'44.5 in mexico / kipkurgat 1'43.9 solo on a windy day / caballo a virtually solo 1'43.5

those last 3 all ran their times after rounds, therefore unrested & negligible drafting or none as in kipkurgat's case

those 3 were intrinsic 1'42-mid/high runs in a 1-off, fully rested tt with pacing to bell

leaving aside snell who was long retired when synthetics came along, coe's 1st record wouda been a ~ 0.25/0.5s improvement if those guys had had their best runs on the circuit & not saved it for championships

as for coe, he had '83 & '87 & both times did not run them

don't talk nonsense about no wc

he had 2 opportunities

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ISBN is wrong about Juantorena in '77 - El Caballo was still running the 400 & 800 and won both at the World Cup, he was not just "...concentrating on the 800,".

It's nonsense to compare runners like Snell with modern runners, as Snell did not do near as much speed/interval training as someone like Coe, never mind not intervals at the speed of Coe or Ovett. Over 800 meters Snell would likely be competitive with today's best with modern training.

We don't know what the true potential for most middle distance guys in the 400 as they did not focus on it. For runners like Borzakovskiy and Rudisha, we do have a good idea of their top end at that distance. Ovett stopped training for the 400 by the time he was 16. Coe trained specifically for the 800/1500 and still managed a good turn of speed over 1 lap. Back in the old days, Ryun ran some fast relay splits at the very start of his track seasons, but the speed of his interval training at 200/400 meters didn't really approach what later runners were doing, but they had faster targets to shoot for.

It's doubtful the level of natural talent has evolved much if at all over the last 100 years. Training has. Tracks have evolved. I do tend to agree, based on personal experience and what we've seen on the track, that the difference between synthetic tracks and prime dirt track is probably worth a couple of seconds in a mile, maybe a second in the 800.

Kipketer? One of the best ever. Bad luck when it came to the Games. But not all record holders win the big one.

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Runner800 wrote:

There is no other runner, past or present, who has the speed endurance, courage, and championship racing temprement to do what Rudisha did at the 2012 Olympics. NO ONE! He front ran a world record in the Olympic final!

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ISBN wrote:Actually, what Clarke has actually written down on paper, would seem to contradict what he says years later in a throwaway response on a tv programme

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Ron Clarke's comments in 1972 are pretty interesting ("Ron Clarke Talks Track, page 47). He said, in part:

"There's nothing to compare with a Tartan track; it's far and beyond the best track surface... The Tartan track I think has meant a difference of around four or five seconds for a two-mile, or about 15-20 seconds in a six-mile."

A 2 mile race is 8 laps. A 4 second difference equates to 0.5 per lap. A 5 sec difference equates to 0.6 per lap.
Moving up to 6 miles or 24 laps, we get a difference of 15 sec being worth 0.625 and a difference of 20 secs being worth 0.83 per lap

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He clearly believes that the longer the race on cinders, the greater the rate of slowing down per lap

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So, if he believes the difference between cinders and synthetic is approx 0.6-0.8 per lap in a 6 mile race, and between 0.5 -0.6 in a 2 mile race, then it's going to be less than this for a 1 mile race, and more so in a half mile

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Clarke's comments in his book, which would have been after some scrutiny on his part, actually backs up the belief that a 0.5 sec per lap is appropriate for a mile, and that the difference between the 2 surfaces per lap will obviously change depending on the speed and distance of the race. [quote]

& he wouda had a decade+ of more scrutiny for his tv interview

his last word on the matter is that difference is 1s/lap

[quote]A second per lap for 10000m would seem quite plausible, but not for a mile

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The top 400m runners in the world in the late 60's did not suddenly all improve their times by 1.0 sec changing from cinders to synthetic

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Coach.. wrote:

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Runner800 wrote:

There is no other runner, past or present, who has the speed endurance, courage, and championship racing temprement to do what Rudisha did at the 2012 Olympics. NO ONE! He front ran a world record in the Olympic final!

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I would say John ngugi runs him close

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Those were impressive for sure. However, I meant that there is no other runner, past or present, who had/has the speed endurance, courage, and championship racing temprement to do what Rudisha did in that 800m Olympic final, that is, front run a 1.40.9! Since no other man could have done this, he's the greatest 800m man.

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ISBN wrote:Idiot.
Kiprugut ran laps of 51.0/53.5 at altitude. The first 400 was pretty perfect for a 1:44 clocking

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The times for most of the 800 guys in that race were pbs

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and there is an overall advantage running an 800 at altitude compared to sea level

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And certainly for a Kenyan born at altitude, the advantage would have been greater too

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Kipkurgat's 1:43.9 was also off a 51.0, so ideal pace

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You always go on about windy weather when trying to bring an athlete's time down. Well if you look a bit closer at actual stats for the wind, then you'll find that the wind reading for Don Quarrie that same day in the 200m was -0.6m/sec, which is a pretty run of the mill wind level for any meet

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It's not like it was 3.5m/sec

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The effect on time for 800m at that level would be negligible

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Juantorena had another chance at the WR the following year when fully rested, with pacers and while focussing purely on the 800m, and he only improved by 0.06sec

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In the World Student Games of 1977 in Sofia, Bulgaria...I was though particularly pleased in that to make the final I ran 3:41 in my heat and then I repeated it a day later in the final in difficult conditions. Traditionally, I suffered a bit in the heat and with the temperature over 100 degrees

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All 3 above had decent careers and numerous opportunities to run fast

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It's not like the 1500 when the pace for the first 2 laps is important, harder to get right and can really effect fast times

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You only have to get someone to keep it fast for the 200-400 section and you should be able to run close to potential

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None of the above were any better than 1:43 mid guys

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Snell was no better than a 1:43 low on synthetic

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He's already stated that grass is faster than cinders

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and cinders is no more than 0.5 sec per lap slower than synthetic over 2 laps

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Snell's fastest ever 440 relay was 47.9, which is 47.6 for 400m, 48.3 for an open 400m and c. 47.8 for an open 400m on synthetic

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This is a sec slower than Coe's 400 best the year he ran 1:42.3

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Snell's 1500 endurance was certainly not as good as Coe's

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so the idea that he would be only a few tenths slower than Coe at 800m

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when Coe's 1500 endurance was better and his 400 speed was a sec + better, is nonsense

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Coe was ill in 83 and out for the entire season in 87

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There was only really 1 opportunity to run a World Champs in his peak years (79 - 86) and he had the misfortune of being ill

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Kipketer and Rudisha had at least 5 opportunities to win a World title at the distance, since in their eras they were held every 2 years, not every 4. So not a level playing ground when comparing the eras.

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Ventolin

You're postings are getting insanely long recently

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ISBN wrote:I think I know which is the more reliable!

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Athletes, like most other sportsmen, tend to embellish things when looking back at their careers

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The further removed from their active days, the more anecdotes, claims exaggerate

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When he wrote the book in '72 he was at the end of his career, with the experience and knowledge of running on both surfaces fresh in his mind and legs

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The BBC interview was more than 10 years later

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Time blurs details of past events and statements

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In any case, when he says' 1 sec per lap, that is in the context of him referring to the 10000m world record, not for a mile

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He said in 72 that the longer the distance, the greater the time lost per lap

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He already stated between 0.63 - 0.83 for a 6 mile race (15 - 20 secs), so with a 10000m a reference to "1 sec per lap" is just a slight rounding up from 0.83

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He's not going to answer with, "It's somewhere between 0.63 and 0.83 per lap for a 10000m", he's going to say what a lay man would understand to make a general point. Thus, "1 sec" fits the bill

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And just to reiterate, he was talking specifically about 10000m not 800m

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Huge difference

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