How do you rank Wilson Kipketer among the greatest men's 800m runners?

46 for 400m from blocks and a 3.29 1500m

Hayduke wrote:

Funny. there is a sandwhich shop called avogadro's number in bozeman mt. it would have made more sense to call it avocado's number.

:)

RomanceNovelCoverModel wrote:

Critical Thinking wrote:

Despite trying, he could not break Coe's record.

Despite trying, Coe did not beat Cruz at the 1984 Olympic Games.

That's one race. Cruz could have gotten that WR at any point, clearly demonstrating that he lacked the capability. I mean, I don't think anyone would rank Steve Ovett over Coe because of '80.

Critical Thinking wrote:

RomanceNovelCoverModel wrote:

Despite trying, Coe did not beat Cruz at the 1984 Olympic Games.

That's one race. Cruz could have gotten that WR at any point, clearly demonstrating that he lacked the capability. I mean, I don't think anyone would rank Steve Ovett over Coe because of '80.

It depends of your criteria. In terms of achievements you are probably right, Coe set WR and had a longer career. In terms of raw talent / potential, I think it's fair enough to say that Ovett's PR is not even close to what he was capable. Whether he was able to run 1:41:7 it's hard to tell, but I am convinced that if he started chasing times, he would've got at least a 1:42:5

Anyway, Kipketer had the highest roof of them all. Including Rudisha.

He is the only runner in history that could have run under 1:40.5.

Anyone who's seen the 1:41:24 WR race and the crazy first lap of the stupid pace maker knows that.

Front-running the entire duration of the 800m Olympic final while knowingly acting as a rabbit for every other runner in a race is more disadvantageous than running with a somewhat confused pacer.

Seyta wrote:

Front-running the entire duration of the 800m Olympic final while knowingly acting as a rabbit for every other runner in a race is more disadvantageous than running with a somewhat confused pacer.

Agreed. It is just a fact that David Rudisha's race at the 2012 Olympic final was the greatest 800 meter performance of all time.

rfmaioral wrote:Maybe the best ever. I see arguments for him to be behind Rudisha, maybe Coe and Cruz. But i would rank him first.

Yes, Rudisha has the WR - but only because of this Kenyan pace maker:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOS3RQU92Z4

This is still the best 800m performance to date. 1:41:24 after a low 48 first lap.

Had the pace maker gone one second slower, Kipketer would have run 1:40:50 this day (maybe low 1:40)

spot on

templeton ( Rudy's manager) has intimated that he is extremely grateful for that stoopid pacer dragging kip thru in 48.3 & not 49.3

he reckons kip wouda gone 1'40-high that day, but the physics of even-splitting indicates a time more around your suggested 1'40.5

the 800 has always suffered from being the poor-man's event in middle distance ( 10k is less regarded still )

if guy has got talent, they go for 1500 ( or 5k if longer-distance types )

we have poorish all-time 800 lists as best talent has gone for 1500

if they had dropped down full-time to 800 we wouda seen the all-time lists re-written

my own mathematical tables indicate this :

3'32.00 = 1'44.00

3'31.00 = 1'43.47

3'30.125 = 1'43.00

3'30.00 = 1'42.94

3'29.50 = 1'42.67

3'29.25 = 1'42.53

3'29.19 = 1'42.50

3'29.00 = 1'42.40

3'28.75 = 1'42.27

3'28.50 = 1'42.13

3'28.25 = 1'42.00

3'28.00 = 1'41.87

3'27.75 = 1'41.73

3'27.50 = 1'41.60

3'27.25 = 1'41.47

3'27.00 = 1'41.33

3'26.75 = 1'41.20

3'26.50 = 1'41.07

3'26.375 = 1'41.00

3'26.21 = 1'40.91

3'26.00 = 1'40.80

there have helluva lot of 3'29/3'30 guys past few years & above says that a lotta of them couda been expected to have gone 1'42+ if they had concentrated full-time on 800, meaning dropping mileage & increasing speedwork

& we are not even getting down to the current 3'27 guys, let alone 3'26/3'43 guys of yore !!!

some credit for current 800 guys :

they don't get very many smooth-paced tt's to the bell, usually some stoopid opening 200 & then a slow next 200 which doesn't help them at all

case in point in bosse who smashed his pb from 1'43-high down to 1'42.5 in 1 go

he obviously was worth helluva lot faster than 1'43-high last year &/or early this one but never got a 1/2-decent race to chase the time

still, on balance, the 800 has never had the depth of talent of the 1500 & the 800 lists are mis-leading for absence of talent

as for cruz

he went crazy chasing $ at end of '84

here are his last 4 races run within 6/7 :

20.08.1984 Nice NIKAIA 1000m 2:14,09 (1.)

+2,77s

G. Williamson, GBR (2.); C. McGeorge, GBR (3.); D. Paige, USA (4.); S. Hoogewerf, CAN (5.); A. Lavie, FRA (6.); Wijnsberge, BEL (7.)

AR

22.08.1984 Zürich Weltklasse in Zürich 800m 1:42,34 (1.)

+1,17s

S. Koskei, KEN (2.) (AR); A. Guimarães, BRA (3.); J. Gray, USA (4.); A. Juantorena (5.); G. Cook, GBR (6.); H-P. Ferner, FRG (7.); J.L. Barbosa, BRA (8.); R. Ostrowski, POL (9.); O. Khalifa, SUD (10.)

AR

24.08.1984 Bruxelles Memorial Van Damme (A) 800m 1:42,41 (1.)

+0,87s -

J. Gray, USA (2.) (AR); J. Robinson, USA (3.); W. Wuycke, VEN (4.); A. Guimarães, BRA (5.); C. McGeorge, GBR (6.); A. Juantorena (7.); E. Jones, USA (8.); D. Paige, USA (9.)

26.08.1984 Köln Internationales des ASV Köln (A) 800m 1:41,77 (1.)

+0,51s ~1

S. Koskei, KEN (2.) (AR); J. Gray, USA (3.) (AR); A. Guimarães, BRA (4.); J.L. Barbosa, BRA (5.); H-P. Ferner, FRG (6.); A. Juantorena (7.); P. Braun, FRG (8.); J. Robinson, USA (9.) / 600m: 1:14,31

for intelligent posters here, give an estimate for what cruz shouda run if he'd targeted koln as his only wr attempt & skipped the 3 prior races & note he had ~ 44 hours between brussels/koln

for an analogy on rest requirements, here is opinion of one of the smartest men in all sport - the manager of manchester, who almost took holland to a world cup final :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30617670

"It is scientifically proven that the body cannot recover within 48 hours,"

line them all up

kipketer wins

but history will record rudisha as the best

here's my list

kipketer

rudisha

cruz

snell

coe

Rudolf Harbig should feature in any top 5.

Judge Trudy wrote:

rcs^52 wrote:

The 800 is actually the least "dopeable" event, compared with sprinting and distance running.

.

Most ridiculous post of the day...

Great response.

Not.

Get back to me with actual facts you idiot.

ventolin^3 wrote:

as for cruz

20.08.19842:14,09

22.08.19841:42,34

24.08.19841:42,41

26.08.19841:41,77

Holy crap.

Coe was the only one who excelled not just in the 800 but other distances as well. None of the others held WRs in events other than the 800, whereas Coe held WR in 1000, 1500 and mile. Coe seemed to just dabble in the 800 while being more serious about the longer distances.

I place Kipketer 3rd, behind Coe and Rudy, with Cruz a close 4th si ply because Kip ran faster and held the WR at one point

Consider that wrote:Coe seemed to just dabble in the 800 while being more serious about the longer distances

you clearly have no clue about the era

coe was always primarily a 800 guy

whenever he had problems, he always went back to 800

even in twilight of his career in '89, he was back at 800 as main event

I place Kipketer 3rd, behind Coe and Rudy, with Cruz a close 4th si ply because Kip ran faster and held the WR at one point

you obviously can't read :

kip ran 1'41.24wr off completely suicidal 23.0 / 48.3 !!!

what on earth do you think that wouda been off 24.0 / 49-low/mid ???

after you figured that out, go re-examine your list

also worth pointing out kenya stopped him from running in atlanta for denmark, a race it is virtually 100% certain he wouda won as he was in 1'41 shape that year as shown in rieti

with that gold, he was robbed of, when IOC couda allowed him to run under olympic flag, there is little doubt he woud be vying with Rudy for top ranking

worth noting he still holds the indoor wr after 17y with 1'42.67 & no one else has cracked 1'44 including 2 guys with 1'42-low/mid with global outdoor titles who were seriously chasing the clock !!!

each year he continues to hold 800i shoud offer incremental increase in his ranking

if he holds it for 30y, what does that do to his ranking ???

kip's splits in his 1'41.24 were 48.3 / 52.94

that is 4.64 +ve splits

now, i devised a formula ( which i have confidence in ) for seriously uneven splits in a 800 compared to "accepted" "gold standard" of 2.0s +ve splits

it was devised for -ve split or even-paced 800s compared to what same run wouda been with 2.0 +ve splits, but there is no reason it can't be used for wildly +ve split 800s ( maths doesn't discriminate ! )

difference from 2.0s +ve splits =

[ ( 2nd lap - 1st lap ) - 2 ] * 0.3

for kip :

[ ( 52.94 - 48.3 ) - 2 ] * 0.3 =

0.79s

-> corrected time of

1'41.24 - 0.79 =

1'40.45

his "ideal" splits that day were

~ 49.2+ / 51.2+

indicating he went thru ~ 1.0s too fast thru 400

ventolin^3 wrote:

if guy has got talent, they go for 1500 ( or 5k if longer-distance types )

wrong, wrong, wrong. The #1 "talent" is speed, all top 800 runners run a 47 or faster 400. The very best are sub 47. Few of them start with the 1500.

As for Coe being primarily 800, both of his fast performances were early in his career. After that, 1:43 was his ceiling, and he managed it only once a year except 1984.

Well this discussion is really going nowhere until people accept that a World Championship gold is equal to an Olympic gold. Usually the same athletes are running, they have trained just as hard and want to win just as much. In determining the greatest ever we have to look at many areas. Number of championship medals won, level and length of dominance, fastest times and number of fast times, World Records and how long the those records stood for and how much the athlete broke the record by and how long the record that was broken actually stood for. It is not simple. Looking at Championship medals Kipketer has 3 WC golds and an Olympic Silver and Gold plus one World Indoor gold and two silvers. Could have had another Olympic medal but wasn’t able to compete in Atlanta. Rudisha has a WC and Olympic gold. Cruz has a WC bronze and an Olympic gold and silver. Coe has two Olympic silvers. Yuri Borzakovskiy has an Olympic gold, two WC silvers and two WC bronze medals and gold and bronze World Indoor medals. Paul Ereng has an Olympic gold and two World Indoor golds. Billy Konchellah has two WC golds and a bronze. Rodal has an Olympic gold and WC bronze. Peter Snell has two Olympic golds. We can go on and on and back through time but that makes comparisons even harder. It is clear though based on this criteria alone Kipketer is number one. Looking at World Records, obviously Rudisha has the record but only two tenths ahead of Kipketers record which stood for 13 years which was over half a second faster than Coes record which stood for 16 years and keep in mind Coe took almost two seconds out of Jauntorenas record which only stood for two years. Snell’s record took 1.4 seconds out of Moen’s and lasted arguably 11 years. So looking at this area it is hard to separate Rudisha and Kipketer as Rudisha only took .2 out of Kipketers 13 year old record where as Kipketer took .5 out of Coes 16 year old record . As well Kipketer has the WR for 800m indoors after he he took 2.2 seconds out of Paul Erengs record who just broke Coes record. Looking at fastest times. Obviously Rudisha is the fastest with his 140.91, Kipketer 141.11, Amos and Coe 1.41.73 and Cruz 1.41.77. How many times though did these athletes run these very fast times. Lets look at the fastest 20 times ever. Rudisha has 13 of them and 6 in top 10, Kipketer has 6 of them in 3 in the top 10, Coe has one time in the top 10 and Cruz one in the top 20. That doesn’t tell the whole picture though. Lets look at times under 143. Rudisha has 16, Kipketer 21, Coe 2, Cruz 7, Gray 4, Borzakovskiy 2, Rodal 2. So looking at this criteria it is clearly between Rudisha and Kipketer with Rudisha edging Kipketer by having more times in the top 10 although Kipketer has more times under 143. That’s brings us to our last criteria. Consistency and dominance. Rudisha was dominant in 2010,11 and 12 and was then injured. Kipketer was dominant or virtually unbeatable in 94,95,96,97 98 had malaria, 99 plus won Olympic medals in 2000 and 2004. Snell won his two Olympic golds over a 4 year period and Coes his two Olympic silvers over 4 year period and Cruz won his Olympic gold and silver and WC bronze over a 5 year period, Konchellah one his 3 WC medals over a 6 year period. Clearly Kipketer is ahead in this criteria as it stands at this point in time. So in conclusion after assessing all the relevant criteria it is clear Wilson Kipketer is the greatest ever. His number of championship medals, his stunning outdoor record and current indoor record, his number of very fast times, his level of dominance over such a long period put him ahead of Rudisha whom I feel needs two more championship gold medals and another year of total dominance to equal or eclipse the great man. Third is very difficult. Either Cruz or Coe. Cruz has more championship medals and a gold one as well and his fastest time is not much slower than Coes but Coe did hold the WR for 16 years after breaking it by 2 seconds in the end. I cannot split these two. After that I am not sure. Borzakovskiy or Snell perhaps. Keep in mind things change very quickly and there is one man who already at a very young age has a PB 141.73 and an Olympic silver and was clearly dominant in 2014. Should he win a championship gold and run under 142 again and have another dominant year then all of a sudden he goes into third. Talking about DJ Zorro.

Great post but dude...paragraphs.

Also, which Olympics did Kipketer win a Gold?

I would probably put Snell over Coe and Cruz actually, after some thought. 2 Olympic golds, world record and complete dominance over quite a few years.

Coe was never dominant over 800m, his world record just lasted for a long time.

Cruz was somewhat dominant but never hit a world record.

I think if Cruz had ran .05 faster he would be a lock for 3rd but...that's how the cookie crumbles.