Thanks for sharing.
I applaud your ability to guide your athletes. I've always thought you should train your athletes like a race horse... Absolutely no more than needed and only with an eye on winning.
The kind of training you practice requires a tremendous amount of experience and confidence. I wish there were more coaches like you. Anyone can write a program that pushes athletes too hard.
As a coach of one of the other boys in the top-10 at FL, I'd like to remind everyone that while we have great influence on these kids' psyches, they are bound to be phenoms with almost any coach that isn't a complete fool. When it comes to the cream of the crop, it's more about getting out of their way and learning as much from them while they are running for you.
To be clear, I had the pleasure of being an assistant coach for Tamagno the past 3 seasons. I don't know that it matters if he runs 30, 50, or 70 miles a week. Well, of course it'll make a slight difference, but I get the feeling the training we (coaches, running nerds, etc.) typically talk about or focus on, such as mileage, speedwork, weights, etc., probably has a minimal impact versus something much more subtle that makes these kids special.
What is that subtle thing? I don't know, and am not convinced too many others know either. Most people just call it "talent", like its some magical voodoo thing out of everyone's control.
How do we increase "talent"?
Thanks for sharing, skinnbones, it's fun hearing about the other wunderkinds.
coachkritter wrote:
Is Fisher's mileage (50 max) and speedwork (only 4 - 400's last year) under - estimated, because of soccer (6mi/match and plenty of speedwork) ?
Sorry coach but with all do respect no soccer player runs 6 miles per match.
Look up the dimensions of a soccer field then calculate how many times end to end it would require to achieve 6 miles you can calculate side to side if you wish. We been thru this before with the ridiculuos assertions during the world cup. That being said the repetition /interval aspect of soccer probably did help. What is remarkable is he physically held up, with high school kids doubling XC and soccer it is usually not been the case in my experience.
Merry x mas and happy holidays to you and yours.
48 +9 wrote:
coachkritter wrote:Is Fisher's mileage (50 max) and speedwork (only 4 - 400's last year) under - estimated, because of soccer (6mi/match and plenty of speedwork) ?
Sorry coach but with all do respect no soccer player runs 6 miles per match.
Look up the dimensions of a soccer field then calculate how many times end to end it would require to achieve 6 miles you can calculate side to side if you wish. We been thru this before with the ridiculuos assertions during the world cup. That being said the repetition /interval aspect of soccer probably did help. What is remarkable is he physically held up, with high school kids doubling XC and soccer it is usually not been the case in my experience.
Merry x mas and happy holidays to you and yours.
It would seem there is clear data to back up the claim of soccer players running 6 miles and more during a match:
http://gizmodo.com/5992583/how-far-do-you-run-in-different-sportsWhat evidence to have that this is "ridiculous"?
NOP Skeptic wrote:
Yes, Jenny Simpson, Leo Manzano, and Centro are all racers, but they're not going to outkick the world best running 4:04 and 3:35...
2011 might have a bone to pick with you...
skinnbones wrote:
We did a set of quarters at a controlled pace (very controlled) and then attempted to finish with 4 solid 400s. We got through two and quit. We attempted the same thing two weeks later and got the same result. Therefore, we quit at two once again.
Mike-
Exactly why did you cut the 4 quarters after 2 each time?
skinnbones wrote:
Jeff,
Thanks for clarifying the 'speed work' question. You're completely correct. We did a set of quarters at a controlled pace (very controlled) and then attempted to finish with 4 solid 400s. We got through two and quit. We attempted the same thing two weeks later and got the same result. Therefore, we quit at two once again.
And I am not opposed to discussing any training at all. The difficult part is that when someone says Grant did XXX today or did YYY today, people think he does that same workout a lot or that's all we do. So, I am careful not to discuss too many details about training WITHOUT having a discussion on the total program. That is what matters.
To answer the question on when an athlete is ready for speed work. For me, it's a V02 issue. Athletes can do speed work before they have a strong V02 but the recovery is too long (in my opinion). A hard session may take 3-4- days to recover from. So, we don't do it until we've done lots of aerobic work, lots of tempo work, and lots of V02 max sessions. And we're getting there now with Grant. And then, a session will only take two days recovery.
I tend to go by the 'little stress a lot of times' rule rather than really hard sessions. And again, things that work for our guys don't necessarily work for everyone.
The aerobic system takes years to develop. HS kids are not even close to being tapped out there. So, we build from Fr year to Sr year in doing ALL aerobic stuff to adding tempo, then hills, then V02 max stuff. I've found that hard short intervals work wonders on the short term but tend to cause injury in the long term.
Mike
Given the general atmosphere/attitude on here, I'm kind of surprised to see you trying to explain things Mike. As an old teammate I've been following your progress on this project with great interest and celebrating each of Grant's successes. Best of luck to both of you.
george oscar bluth wrote:
But. . . wrote:If he doesn't improve on his PRs, but wins every high school race he bothers to run, he will still go down as one of the greatest high school runners ever.
Yes
No
But. . . wrote:
It does make sense about Fisher not going for times. But in that case, I hope he does some very high profile races, even college or a pro race or two. He has nothing to gain from racing high school competition, but racing the big boys as a high schooler would be great preparation for his own professional career if that's what he chooses to do with his life.
He's still a kid. No matter how fast he's running, he's still developing. I think his coach is doing a great job. He should be focusing on racing, learning and keeping healthy. Kids get stronger and faster sleeping in when they are that age. Too many high school coaches think the added performance each year has more to do with them than with nature. Though I do hope this coach doesn't over think it too much.
Running fast in high school is great for school choices and magazines, but learning how to race and keep your head focused is more valuable.
I hope he goes a long way.
lambstail wrote:
But. . . wrote:It does make sense about Fisher not going for times. But in that case, I hope he does some very high profile races, even college or a pro race or two. He has nothing to gain from racing high school competition, but racing the big boys as a high schooler would be great preparation for his own professional career if that's what he chooses to do with his life.
He's still a kid. No matter how fast he's running, he's still developing. I think his coach is doing a great job. He should be focusing on racing, learning and keeping healthy. Kids get stronger and faster sleeping in when they are that age. Too many high school coaches think the added performance each year has more to do with them than with nature. Though I do hope this coach doesn't over think it too much.
Running fast in high school is great for school choices and magazines, but learning how to race and keep your head focused is more valuable.
I hope he goes a long way.
Agreed on all counts. The kid is smart to stay off the computer, stick to the plan and enjoy the ride. Maybe he pops something crazy, maybe he doesn't. He is a kid. I also really like the fact that the coach is trying to keep the pressure off of the kid by laying off the sub-4 talk. In the running world we tend to do the Tommy Boy "new pet" routine to every promising new high school name that comes along. This misplaced excitement squashes more young careers than it develops. Why does it matter that he break 4 in high school? Barring a career-ending injury, it's gonna happen, so what's the rush? Let's just enjoy the fact that the kid is a freak, he is reasonably trained by a legit coach with a solid plan, and he races well. His coach places emphasis on racing skills which are often overlooked by coaches who memorize Daniels pace charts but fail to translate strong workouts to strong races.
http://youtu.be/c1EyN9xTK94lambstail wrote:
Running fast in high school is great for school choices and magazines, but learning how to race and keep your head focused is more valuable.
I hope he goes a long way.
Are you implying that the two are mutually exclusive?
your not smart wrote:
lambstail wrote:Running fast in high school is great for school choices and magazines, but learning how to race and keep your head focused is more valuable.
I hope he goes a long way.
Are you implying that the two are mutually exclusive?
Not totally. But it depends on the quality of guidance. However, in the whole, I have little confidence in the quality of high school sports parenting or coaching.
Really enjoyed the article and the discussion it has sparked. Can somebody from the Michigan area tell me about the rest of the program that Mike coaches? How have they been traditionally? Does he have any other good boys/girls?
Jeff Hollobaugh wrote:
To clarify—and I’m not speaking for Scannell or Fisher here—when they used the term “speedwork” in the interviews, they were generally referring to high velocity, near-100% effort repeats. They did plenty of pacework. Two of the four 400s that were referenced came after an 8 x 400 at pace (he doesn’t say what pace), then Grant was told he could hammer another four. He ran in the high 53-low 54 range on two of those, then Scannell stopped the workout.
Training volume did not increase significantly when Fisher dropped soccer. The main difference, according to Scannell, was that he was suddenly able to finish planned workouts. Last year, if they planned 8 x 1000 tempos, Scannell says it was rare to hit all 8, and he would often pull the plug after 6. This year Fisher has been nailing them all—the elimination of soccer (and whatever extra running he was doing in soccer games/practices)—has given him the recovery time he needs.
Finally, my personal opinion on Fisher not “chasing” records: in the U.S. in the last few decades we have trained a bazillion young men and women to chase records and PRs. At the higher levels, we teach them how to avoid competition and run behind rabbits. However, if our goal is to put runners in OG/WC finals and win medals, an emphasis on racing and competition is probably a lot more effective. With our current group of medalists—Manzano, Centrowitz, Simpson, et al—you are seeing real racers, not time trialers. I applaud any athlete who realizes that racing skills are crucial.
Jeff, thank you for writing so thoughtfully.
Mike, you are an exceptional coach, a trusted mentor to Grant and have always been a great friend to his Mother and I.
... Folks posting on LR... Thanks for your positive thoughts.
if it's not broken wrote:
I understand your point and it makes sense, but I don't think he "doesn't want to" set HSRs. Instead, I think (based on my understanding of the article linked above) he wants to stay with the philosophy that has allowed him to be healthy and improve- and that philosophy is not based on trying to run certain times, but is based on trying to develop the different "pieces" at the right time. If you start going after certain times, it can distract you from following the process that leads to optimal improvement.
If developing the "pieces"- understood. But at the same time, Rupp was going after records most every race in his last year as a junior runner.
Scannell has had success with ALL of the athletes that he trains. He can transform a kid that has no business running into a legit runner. As far as I know, he is the only coach to have 2 athletes in the dream mile (Omar Kaddurah and Grant Fisher) and that speaks to his ability to really bring the best out of his athletes. Scannell is not a coach of a high school and rarely trains girls. He has a small dedicated group of athletes that are goal driven, determined and successful not only in running, but in life. Scannell is not just a running coach - he is a mentor to all of his athletes. Basically every single runner he coaches has a chance to run in college and it is up to the athlete to decide if that is what he wants to do.
As far as training goes, it is all very similar to what Grant does. There is an emphasis on tempos, long runs, and hills. Grant may go faster in workouts than the other kids, but generally every other athlete does the same thing that Grant does. The group that Scannell coaches is no more than 8 boys. Scannell's runners trust him with their training and that is probably why his athletes succeed. Part of that is due to the fact that Scannell himself is a fantastic runner, he routinely runs with athletes during tempos. He really does lead by example and has a profound positive impact on all his athletes.
Coach, I appreciate you coming on here. And you haven't been trashed yet. That must be a record!
I coach some high quality kids too and don't use the term speed work much either. But I like some really hard stuff, like 2-3 x1k @ 2:36-40. Is that type of thing part of your program?
Good luck this year.
Someonethatknows wrote:
Scannell has had success with ALL of the athletes that he trains. He can transform a kid that has no business running into a legit runner. As far as I know, he is the only coach to have 2 athletes in the dream mile (Omar Kaddurah and Grant Fisher) and that speaks to his ability to really bring the best out of his athletes. Scannell is not a coach of a high school and rarely trains girls. He has a small dedicated group of athletes that are goal driven, determined and successful not only in running, but in life. Scannell is not just a running coach - he is a mentor to all of his athletes. Basically every single runner he coaches has a chance to run in college and it is up to the athlete to decide if that is what he wants to do.
As far as training goes, it is all very similar to what Grant does. There is an emphasis on tempos, long runs, and hills. Grant may go faster in workouts than the other kids, but generally every other athlete does the same thing that Grant does. The group that Scannell coaches is no more than 8 boys. Scannell's runners trust him with their training and that is probably why his athletes succeed. Part of that is due to the fact that Scannell himself is a fantastic runner, he routinely runs with athletes during tempos. He really does lead by example and has a profound positive impact on all his athletes.
So he transforms kids that have no business running into legit runners and dream mile types? Certainly it's not just by doing 8x400. I mean, if he's only coaching a group of 8 boys, I can't imagine him taking on guys that can't break 5:00 in the mile to start with. I picture "no business running" as boys that can't break 6:00 in the mile as freshman after XC season is over.
No offense to Scannell, I like what he's doing, but is the guy really a miracle worker? Turning water into wine?
skinnbones wrote:
Jeff,
Thanks for clarifying the 'speed work' question. You're completely correct. We did a set of quarters at a controlled pace (very controlled) and then attempted to finish with 4 solid 400s. We got through two and quit. We attempted the same thing two weeks later and got the same result. Therefore, we quit at two once again.
And I am not opposed to discussing any training at all. The difficult part is that when someone says Grant did XXX today or did YYY today, people think he does that same workout a lot or that's all we do. So, I am careful not to discuss too many details about training WITHOUT having a discussion on the total program. That is what matters.
To answer the question on when an athlete is ready for speed work. For me, it's a V02 issue. Athletes can do speed work before they have a strong V02 but the recovery is too long (in my opinion). A hard session may take 3-4- days to recover from. So, we don't do it until we've done lots of aerobic work, lots of tempo work, and lots of V02 max sessions. And we're getting there now with Grant. And then, a session will only take two days recovery.
I tend to go by the 'little stress a lot of times' rule rather than really hard sessions. And again, things that work for our guys don't necessarily work for everyone.
The aerobic system takes years to develop. HS kids are not even close to being tapped out there. So, we build from Fr year to Sr year in doing ALL aerobic stuff to adding tempo, then hills, then V02 max stuff. I've found that hard short intervals work wonders on the short term but tend to cause injury in the long term.
Mike
This, ladies and gentlemen, is what happens when a coach who knows what he's doing gets a very talented athlete with a level head.
[quote]Another Option wrote:
[quote]48 +9 wrote:
[quote]coachkritter wrote:[/b
It would seem there is clear data to back up the claim of soccer players running 6 miles and more during a match:
http://gizmodo.com/5992583/how-far-do-you-run-in-different-sports
Gizmodo? LMAO Well seems Barnum and Bailey were right after all.
By the way I have some ocean side real estate in Nevada you might be interested in.
Am I living in the twilight zone? The Boston Marathon weather was terrible!
Des Linden: "The entire sport" has changed since she first started running Boston.
Matt Choi was drinking beer halfway through the Boston Marathon
Is there a rule against attaching a helium balloon to yourself while running a road race?
How rare is it to run a sub 5 minute mile AND bench press 225?
2024 College Track & Field Open Coaching Positions Discussion