cjjl wrote:
Galen Rupp ran 13:37 at 18
Gerry Lindgren ran 13:44 at 18
Dathan Ritzenhein ran 13:44 at 19
Steve Prefontaine ran 13:52 at 18
Dathan ran 13:44 at 18, not 19.
He ran 13:27 at 19.
cjjl wrote:
Galen Rupp ran 13:37 at 18
Gerry Lindgren ran 13:44 at 18
Dathan Ritzenhein ran 13:44 at 19
Steve Prefontaine ran 13:52 at 18
Dathan ran 13:44 at 18, not 19.
He ran 13:27 at 19.
yesstiles wrote:
Alberto Salazar ran 13:45 for 3-miles when he was 16. That's equivalent to 14:16 for 5000 meters.
Interesting. I did not know Al ran quite that fast as a 16 y.o. (but Al wasn't american born, so I guess he doesn't count for rojo's purposes either! ;-) )
So basically we have Virgin, Salazar, and Verzbicas running between 14:14-14:18 as 16 y.o.'s. As I said, Verzbicas was indoors, and won 40+ seconds (and doubled back the next time in 8:57). So all those guys were pretty equal at that age. And German's 5k X-C races his senior year, when still 16 (95% of the season) are right in that ballpark (14:24 x-c right after turning 17).
Looks like all those guys might have been 14:10 capable in the ideal race as 16 y.o's. Maybe Hulst, Franklyn Sanchez also. But pretty impressive that Japan has produced a couple 16 y.o.'s significantly faster than that (13:45 and now 13:59).
Alberto ran 14;14 for 5000 [faster than Virgin] in the 1975 Jr AAU meet.
At the time, it was a world age group record.
The answer to the original question is 14:12.3 by Craig Virgin in 1972. Just for fun, the U.S. age 16 record for 10,000 is 29:27.2 by Bill McChesney in 1975.
The place to go for these stats is the High School Track annual published by Jack Shepard each year since before the Great Flood. Every indoor/outdoor high school record imaginable is there, plus sweet all-time lists, and yearly lists for the nation.
$12 includes free shipping. Send check to Jack Shepard, 14551 Southfield Dr, Westminster, CA 92683
(I'm not Jack, but one of the people who helps him gather material. He has devoted decades of persistent work to this, and deserves all the recognition.)
I appreciate you taking a moment to respond. The problem I have with your response (and any similar response regarding race), is that it's both a gross generalization and a scientific fiction.
It's a gross generalization because there's no such thing as discrete "white" and "black" races. Skin color varies on a huge spectrum based on many many factors. There is no such skin color as "white" or "black". What you may consider or judge to be "white" is actually a wide variation of colors, and no two people are likely to judge these gradations the same.
It's a scientific fiction because "race" is a social construct and has no objective basis in science. There's a large body of literature that supports this. There are many people who are in fact African Americans whose skin color is lighter than many so-called "whites."
Overall, I wish we could stop the white/black color judging and focus on the running. Unfortunately we struggle with this on many levels.
Japan had six athletes in 2014 break 28 minutes for 10k on the track , the USA had only two.
BLACK SEPT wrote:
Alberto ran 14;14 for 5000 [faster than Virgin] in the 1975 Jr AAU meet.
At the time, it was a world age group record.
You are partially right but mostly wrong.
Salazar ran 14:14.6 at that meet, tying Virgin, not beating him. The 13:45 three mile for Salazar that somebody mentioned earlier was en route to the 14:14.6, not in a separate three mile race.
Virgin did not run 14:12.3 as a 16 year old. That time is mentioned on the internet in a couple of places but the reference is to the same meet against the Russians in 1972 where all contemporary sources report his time as 14:14.6.
"In late June [1975], Coach Squires entered me [Salazar] in the USA Junior Outdoor Track-and-Field Championships, for athletes 19 and under, held in Knoxville, Tennessee. I did not win the 5000-meter race—I again finished second—but I competed against athletes significantly older than me, including guys who'd just finished their freshman year in college. Moreover, my 14:14.6 time tied the U.S. runner Craig Virgin's mark as the fastest ever by a 16-year-old."
http://www.runnersworld.com/boston-marathon/rookie?page=singlerojo wrote:
Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:I see your point, but that's why I said "sort of" and why I emphasized american SCHOOL record for 16 y.o.'s. He was raised here, trained here, went to school here, competed in our system. It's relevant. If he had gotten citizenship when he was 15 suddenly you'd be interested?
I'd be a little more interested but would probably be interested in the 'American born' record - ha ha.
Basically, I know a few people of East African descent can run much faster than 13:58 at age 16. I"m not sure if anyone else can. That's why I'm asking. I guess Verzbicas clearly isn't of East African descent but am wondering if there are anymore.
Based on about 30 minutes of research, no American has run even the equivalent of a 13:58 5K at age 16. Two close performances I could find are Andrew Hunter's 8:16 (3K) and Bill McChesney's 29:27 (10K), both performances I assume were age 16 based on their grade level.
However, Jim Ryun, Eric Hulst, Bill McChesney, Rudy Chapa, Franklin Sanchez, German Fernandez and Grant Fisher had performances a few months into age 17 which suggest had they run an all out 5K a few months earlier, perhaps they could have run 13:58. (On second thought they would have had to train for it.)
at age 16.
You are correct that Virgin ran 14:14.6 against the Soviets at age 16. But Jack Shepard's stats are right (and RW/Salazar are mistaken)--the U.S. age 16 record is 14:12.3.
From Jack: "Craig ran his 14:12.3 at the Ozark AAU meet on July 8, 1972 in Florissant, Mo"...
Not the sort of meet that you can find much about on the Internet 44+ years later--that's why our sport needs real historians like Jack.
Stats R Us wrote:
You are correct that Virgin ran 14:14.6 against the Soviets at age 16. But Jack Shepard's stats are right (and RW/Salazar are mistaken)--the U.S. age 16 record is 14:12.3.
From Jack: "Craig ran his 14:12.3 at the Ozark AAU meet on July 8, 1972 in Florissant, Mo"...
Not the sort of meet that you can find much about on the Internet 44+ years later--that's why our sport needs real historians like Jack.
There is no way that a legit 14:12.3 5000m by Virgin would have escaped contemporary coverage. Sports Illustrated, newpapers, something would survive. Track received a great deal of media coverage at that time,
As Salazar's account of his 1975 race shows, everyone was aware of the 14:14.6 and everyone regarded it as the record.
Misprints have been known to happen and get repeated as fact. As an example, for many years the IAAF book of records had Mary Decker holding the age 14 record at 4:37.4 for a race in which she actually ran 4:47.4
Need more than a say so.
rojo wrote:
http://japanrunningnews.blogspot.com/2014/12/16-year-old-endo-runs-135893-tenth.htmlBrett Larner reports it came in the final and 41st heat of the 5ks at the Nittai University Time Trials.
That naturally leads to some questions.
Does anyone know what's the best in US history at age 16?
I guess why were at it - what's the official (not that I believe it ) record for Kenya?
Ethiopia?
Canada?
UK?
Also how many 5k heats do they run at Mt. Sac? Stanford?
41 heats even at just 15 minutes each would take more than 10 hours.
The fastest American 16-year old for 5k I found was 14:14.6 In 1972 by a runner named Craig Virgin, That time was equaled in 1975 by a runner named Alberto Salazar. They were both HS Juniors. I know Virgin's B-day is August so for sure he was 16 as a HS Junior. I believe ALSAL also has a summer birthday.
Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:
Looks like all those guys might have been 14:10 capable in the ideal race as 16 y.o's. Maybe Hulst, Franklyn Sanchez also. But pretty impressive that Japan has produced a couple 16 y.o.'s significantly faster than that (13:45 and now 13:59).
All depends on how you look it. In Japan Alan Webb,Ryan Hall and the rest of the guys that ran 4:02 miles would have been running the 5k. Instead we have the case where the US HS mile record is faster than the japanese open one.
I don't know when Rosa turned 17 but his 8:44 as a juniormaps to a 14:16. If he was in better distance shape (his 2 mile was better than his 1 mile) that is within the margin of error of 14:00. I think it is important to remember there is a huge variance in HS performances where the kids often only get 2 or 3 shots at really super fast times. There was nothing to suggest rupp would run 13:37 (14:00 was much more inline) or that Webb was going to drop a 3:53 (i.e. 3:56 sure). Those performance stand head and shoulders above everything else they did.
There is also a huge randomness factor when looking at ages. The kid that turns 17 on lets say july 1 has a much better chance to set a big track PR than the kid that turns 17 on April 1st. Some kids are effectively 9+ months older during their 16 year old track season.
Of course none of this takes away from the fac that running a sub 14 min 5k is a big accomplishment for anyone under 19.
You really think that the media would be all over covering the Ozark AAU meet?
Any other examples? That sounds like an anomaly, and frankly, like Professional wrestling in the US.
From the (race) horse's mouth: I did not run my first 5000 m. race until my Junior year in H.S. when I was 16 and had just come of successful 8:51/4:09 double at the Illinois State Meet. I then ran a 3 mile race at altitude in Denver, CO at the first AAU Junior Nationals and got 2nd to Tony Sandoval but held off a fast closing Paul Geis... who had raced too conservative because he was worried about the altitude. That qualified me for the first ever USA vs. USSR Junior Dual T & F Meet which was held in Sacramento, CA in late July. In between, I believe I kept sharp by running in the Ozark Assoc. AAU Meet at Florissant Valley Community College and believe I soloed to the 14:12.3 referenced above (probably winning by over 200 yards in that meet...) but I believe I ran faster in the 5000 m. against the Soviet juniors late in July... I think it was 14:11 or so..... to finish a close 3rd to the two Soviet runners who finally passed me in the last 200 meters after I led the whole friggin' race and they then boxed me in during the homestretch. It taught me a lot about team racing tactics that day.... It was near 100 degrees on the clay track at Sacramento City Stadium...and we ran the meet in the afternoon due to live TV coverage on ABC Wide World of Sports. Memba that one? The color analyst was Bill Twoomey of '68 decathlon fame. BTW, I wore the first pair of Nike spikes ever in int'l competition that day... and they put out a B/W poster of the race that fall for their first ever poster. I will check on exact times for the two 5K races and get back to you all. I did run 13:58 at age 17 against the Russians in the dual meet rematch in Odessa, Ukraine to win in my final race of H.S. career in July of 73.... one year later.
Stats R Us wrote:
You are correct that Virgin ran 14:14.6 against the Soviets at age 16. But Jack Shepard's stats are right (and RW/Salazar are mistaken)--the U.S. age 16 record is 14:12.3.
From Jack: "Craig ran his 14:12.3 at the Ozark AAU meet on July 8, 1972 in Florissant, Mo"...
Not the sort of meet that you can find much about on the Internet 44+ years later--that's why our sport needs real historians like Jack.
From 1972 Track and Field News:
http://lynbrooksports.prepcaltrack.com/ATHLETICS/TRACK/TFN/1972tfn.htmFrom 1975 Track and Field News:
http://lynbrooksports.prepcaltrack.com/ATHLETICS/TRACK/TFN/1975tfn.htmrojo wrote:
http://japanrunningnews.blogspot.com/2014/12/16-year-old-endo-runs-135893-tenth.htmlBrett Larner reports it came in the final and 41st heat of the 5ks at the Nittai University Time Trials.
That naturally leads to some questions.
Does anyone know what's the best in US history at age 16?
I guess why were at it - what's the official (not that I believe it ) record for Kenya?
Ethiopia?
Canada?
UK?
Also how many 5k heats do they run at Mt. Sac? Stanford?
41 heats even at just 15 minutes each would take more than 10 hours.
Hmmm, I dunno. Why don't you ask someone who calls himself a professional running journalist who also maintains a website dedicated to running? Surely they should be able to find out these basic facts about the sport they have dedicated their professional lives to.
oldold runner wrote:
Stats R Us wrote:You are correct that Virgin ran 14:14.6 against the Soviets at age 16. But Jack Shepard's stats are right (and RW/Salazar are mistaken)--the U.S. age 16 record is 14:12.3.
From Jack: "Craig ran his 14:12.3 at the Ozark AAU meet on July 8, 1972 in Florissant, Mo"...
Not the sort of meet that you can find much about on the Internet 44+ years later--that's why our sport needs real historians like Jack.
From 1972 Track and Field News:
http://lynbrooksports.prepcaltrack.com/ATHLETICS/TRACK/TFN/1972tfn.htmFrom 1975 Track and Field News:
http://lynbrooksports.prepcaltrack.com/ATHLETICS/TRACK/TFN/1975tfn.htm
I just looked at the actual book where the 1975 results were gotten from. In that book Virgin and Salazar are co holders of the Junior class record. Virgin is the only one listed for the age 16 record.
So, it seems Virgin's 14:14.6 is the fastest an American 16-year old has run for 5k.
I've had a little fun tracking down what happened with the reporting of the 14:12.3. Track & Field News did not find out about it until 1982 (!) which is why isn't reflected in any editions of "High School Track" until 1983. Perhaps our skeptic is too young to understand what results reporting was like before the Internet. No one tweeted anything, and Flotrack and Dyestat just weren't helping out at all in the 1970s. And only about two people back then cared about age records. Hard to believe that Sports Illustrated didn't mention it? Really? I think their track people were a little busy that same weekend covering the 1972 Olympic Trials in Eugene. It's fair to say all eyes were on Prefontaine, Wottle, and Ryun.
Not sure (yet) what the deal was with the 10-year delay in reporting! If you look at old copies of Track Newsletter (the amendments section) back then, delays of many months were very common in reporting some excellent results. Over a year--not unheard of. Ten years? My guess is some official in Missouri, or someone close to Craig Virgin, looked at the 14:14.6 getting credit and said, "Wait a minute, didn't he run faster in Missouri?"
Two things Craig Virgin said to me today in an email stand out: (1) "The record keeping was absolutely atrocious." Amen to that. Without T&FN and its Track Newsletter, a zillion great marks would be lost to history.
(2) "I had the kind of career in H.S. that definitely would have created a national buzz if the Internet had been alive back then." Another big amen. Today there are a lot--thousands?--of fans who are very well-informed about top high school athletes nationally. Back then, there were very, very few who cared about high school track beyond the borders of their own states--a handful at best. And the only source for that sort of information was T&FN, and it was not a big priority. I think Dyestat deserves the credit for creating a national fanbase for high school track.
Your one hundred percent correct.
The 1977 issue of High School Track and later years has Virgin and Salazar as the co-holders of the age 16 record.
My 1980's and 90's issues have the age 16 record as 14:12.3 by Virgin.
Once again I'm going on what was printed 20 to 40 plus years ago. Pre internet.
So as the old 2-mile races in the fall were called POSTALS because result were mailed in.
The 14:12.3 run by Virgin was lost in the shuffle for a few years.