He wants you to run like Henry Rono.
That is all.
He wants you to run like Henry Rono.
That is all.
TurdQuiche wrote:
canuckboy wrote:I understand what my coach wants me to do. He wants me to push off with the forefoot/push thru with the ankle, same idea. But I know this is wrong. We need to achieve a whole when we run. We need to run by feel not through some exaggerated focus or concentration exercise. This is simply a waste of our physical and mental energy. Mastering any skill is about relaxing and letting our natural rhythm take over. Playing a musical instrument, playing skilled sports, public speaking, acting all are examples. And even highly physical endeavours like running require that same relaxed demeanour.
I actually think theres not a lot to good form. I see it as the opposite Mr. fisky. Mo Farah and Galen Rupp make running look very easy, effortless, because for them, it is. They relax and run by feel. Not because some sort of conscious exercises have implanted each and every skill in their brains and has culminated to the perfect stride. That's just some "practice makes perfect" BS that has long been disproven.
I see a lot of runners, often females who are very deliberate in their style that just waste energy. You see things like wrist flicks like one already mentioned, pointy sprinter hands, and over striding/heel striking. The way to fix this junk is not to work on some concentration exercises, its to get them to understand that they need to run naturally on their forefoot(of course exercises can help them understand better but it shouldn't be overcomplicated) and run by feel. In this manner they wont overthink the stride, they will feel the natural feedback that their body gives them and you will see a proper stride take over. Exercises/weights might strengthen muscles and improve economy, but if you don't have the fitness you don't have anything.
Last thing I will add is that a lot of poor posture you see at the end of races is caused by mental suffering and not physical discomfort. Its the anxieties and the doubts that mess up our breathing and cause us to be begin to change ur running form, compensating for our difficulty getting in oxygen. Fatigue and pain are emotions. And therefore in my mind, the solution to poor form in the end of races is not concentrating on form, but toughening ones mind to allow them to stop fighting themselves and focus on the race. Not their form.
Just my two cents.
Um... judging from that post, you should probably listen to your coach.
And put down the bong.
Gary Oldman wrote:
He wants you to run like Henry Rono.
That is all.
Too young to understand that reference. 97' baby. Will check out mr. Rono.
[/quote]
And put down the bong.[/quote]
Brah, if you wanna me a better runner its about time you embrace the hippie shit. Have you ever heard of ultra running?
You can't "think" your way to better form, it has to come naturally. Short hill sprints are the best. When you relax and try to run fast, your body figures out how to do it more efficiently. When you go uphill, it puts a lot less stress on the joints than going fast on flat ground.
Form matters, but there is too much horseshit written about it to believe everything you read... Keep in mind that most people have no way of actually measuring which techniques are more "efficient."
random3 wrote:
Let me give you an easy example to think about.
A very good local HS runner that has above average form BUT he turns his left wrist 90 degrees on the backswing. This causes his entire hand to flop with every arm swing. It looks awful and wastes a small amount of energy.
This is something that would be easy to fix. Do you have him fix it? I would. However, his coach doesn't spend a minute on form. I believe he assumes, like most runners, that heavy training will guide him to the most efficient form. This kid is 60+ mpw and isn't going to change without thinking about it.
Btw, a specific answer to your question...unless your form is god-awful bad (in which case you should be listening to your coach) you won't be able to see and quantify changes without a high-speed video session.
Wrists should be slightly floppy, not rigid, that wastes energy. Think about when you throw a stone, your whole body uses a whiplash action to propel that object. Same applies in running. Think about it.
You got it bassackwards
canuckboy wrote:
Senior in HS. Running coach is always telling me that the next step to getting faster is that I need to develop this lengthy stride where every step I'm driving with the ankle, and pushing so that I can cover more ground...
Is this not completely moronic and delusional... I run with a midfoot/forefoot strike (whatever you want to call it) but I know that running is a subconcious process where things like breathing, coordination are all determined by our brains. Trying to alter your natural stride is just going to kill your running economy I would assume. Anyway just looking for some confirmation on this.
The guys a good person but I just think everyone has become so OCD when it comes to foot strike. We all only have one way to run(maybe two with cushy shoes and heel strikers)... shouldn't we not let our natural rhythm and cadence take over? Its the fitness we need to worry about, no?
Some of your training should be conscious efforts at optimizing form, and some of it should be incorporation what you have learned without thinking about it too much.
When you race, it is almost impossible to change your form and you must rely on what you have practised in training.
Yeah I'm from the school of thought of not messing with form at all. Studies have actually been conducted to demonstrate that athletes focusing on form improvement expend more energy than by just running naturally. If form changes do occur, they shouldn't require conscious thinking and should be the result of either increased flexibility, orthotics, or myofascial release. Anecdotally, I tried to change my form consciously in college and it 100% back fired. I ended up getting unnecessarily sore and ran like total crap.
HardLoper wrote:
You can't "think" your way to better form, it has to come naturally. Short hill sprints are the best. When you relax and try to run fast, your body figures out how to do it more efficiently. When you go uphill, it puts a lot less stress on the joints than going fast on flat ground.
Form matters, but there is too much horseshit written about it to believe everything you read... Keep in mind that most people have no way of actually measuring which techniques are more "efficient."
OK Canuck,
I'll start by saying that I agree with HardLoper (and your OP) 100%. I believe the form you're using now is most efficient for you, and probably, for a lot of chumps who do buy the 'long stride is better' or 'heel strike is better' BS. I also believe that the MB in general doesn't agree with me and most buy into the coach's spiel.
That having been said, the entire MB will be offended by my next point but you need to hear it. Will you heed my advice? No. Neither will HS poster jayz who will be pissed off that I'm throwing this out there, but hey, no one else is gonna tell you this.
The next step to getting better and being more successful is to ditch the coach. That's right, unload the coach, team, and school from your running career. This clown is only 'my coach' because you made him 'my coach'. You may think the school district gives the guy authority over anyone within the district boundaries. Not the case. At your age ran a lot, somewhat successfully, I might add, and never met my HS track coach. No cop ever tackled me and charged me with illegally training or racing without school sanction.
The school's sanction does not benefit you. It benefits them. Does it piss the school and coach off when the best distance runner who is elegible to be on the team runs on his own and wins races but not for their glory just his own? Yes it does. I know this from personal experience. I got to coach myself and do exactly what worked for me. I picked the events, never had to f-up a weekend running relay legs, never had to listen to the assistant football coach who needed a spring job and ended up with track blab about form.
Will you simply refuse to walk over to the track table next semester on sign-up day and run for only yourself? No. But now you can't say you didn't know it was an option!
canuckboy wrote:
fisky wrote:As you lift weights, run more, and run faster, running form improves naturally for many people. For those whose form doesn't improve, they get injured so often they quit the sport. Thus, those who say running form improves naturally are looking at a self selected sample of themselves and others who became good without any conscious effort to improve form. They (the people on this forum) are actually the minority of people who run. Many beginning, high school, and recreational runners could benefit greatly from improving their running form. If you doubt this, watch runners finishing from 20 minutes on back at your local 5k. You will see lots of form flaws that increase the risk of injury and limit the runners' potential to get faster.
I think your coach's explanation is confusing. You don't actually push from the ankle. Your ankle never touches the ground. To me, running from the ankle implies that the foot stays dorsiflexed throughout the entire foot strike. It does not. The foot is dorsiflexed at landing and plantar flexed at push off.
You actually push off from the forefoot, but it's too simplistic to just say "push off with the forefoot." "Push off" is a coordinated effort of driving the arms, extending the leg behind you, pushing off with the forefoot, keeping your pelvis tucked in so you get slightly more knee lift naturally with the forward leg, and slightly more forward lean. Oh, and keep your torso aligned and not bent forward. All of this together leads to a better push off.
You might be good at parts of the above and weak at others. We don't know. We haven't seen you run.
There's a lot more to good form. The above comments only address push off.
Lifting will help. Running drills like skips will help. Looking at slow motion videos of your own running form will help. Watching slow motion videos of top Kenyan runners will illustrate all the form components I outlined above.
Again, I haven't seen you run, but it's easier to coach some runners by showing them how to adjust their arm swing. For example, if you concentrate on extending your opposite elbow farther back, your trailing leg will also extend slightly farther back, giving you more of the push you are looking for. It's worth a try, but changing armswing is difficult for many runners. There are drills specifically for armswing, but that wasn't your question and this post is already too long. Good luck.
I understand what my coach wants me to do. He wants me to push off with the forefoot/push thru with the ankle, same idea. But I know this is wrong. We need to achieve a whole when we run. We need to run by feel not through some exaggerated focus or concentration exercise. This is simply a waste of our physical and mental energy. Mastering any skill is about relaxing and letting our natural rhythm take over. Playing a musical instrument, playing skilled sports, public speaking, acting all are examples. And even highly physical endeavours like running require that same relaxed demeanour.
I actually think theres not a lot to good form. I see it as the opposite Mr. fisky. Mo Farah and Galen Rupp make running look very easy, effortless, because for them, it is. They relax and run by feel. Not because some sort of conscious exercises have implanted each and every skill in their brains and has culminated to the perfect stride. That's just some "practice makes perfect" BS that has long been disproven.
I see a lot of runners, often females who are very deliberate in their style that just waste energy. You see things like wrist flicks like one already mentioned, pointy sprinter hands, and over striding/heel striking. The way to fix this junk is not to work on some concentration exercises, its to get them to understand that they need to run naturally on their forefoot(of course exercises can help them understand better but it shouldn't be overcomplicated) and run by feel. In this manner they wont overthink the stride, they will feel the natural feedback that their body gives them and you will see a proper stride take over. Exercises/weights might strengthen muscles and improve economy, but if you don't have the fitness you don't have anything.
Last thing I will add is that a lot of poor posture you see at the end of races is caused by mental suffering and not physical discomfort. Its the anxieties and the doubts that mess up our breathing and cause us to be begin to change ur running form, compensating for our difficulty getting in oxygen. Fatigue and pain are emotions. And therefore in my mind, the solution to poor form in the end of races is not concentrating on form, but toughening ones mind to allow them to stop fighting themselves and focus on the race. Not their form.
Just my two cents.
Actually you should work on the drive from your ankle/forefoot/calf (semantics- we all know what he means) during TRAINING. Just like you run hills during training, intervals during training, etc. This will create the strength that you need during the races, when you should be running more on instinct and feel.
What times have you run?
HardLoper wrote:
Keep in mind that most people have no way of actually measuring which techniques are more "efficient."
It is called the power of vision and the stopwatch.
Also, there is nothing wrong with heel striking.[/quote]
This could not be more wrong. There's this thing called biomechanics, learn it before you give advice on LRC. It's pretty much imperative that you don't heel strike unless you wanna put a ceiling on your improvement. Running is all about efficiency, and if you're landing on your heel, its actually slowing you down by stopping your momentum. Mid-foot strike is the way to go because it adds to your momentum you already have going, using less energy. If that whole thing went over your head, then just take my word for it and practice running with good foot strike on your easy mileage and ask your coach about incorporating core and plyometric routines that will correct your foot strike.
Running economy is an outdated and oversimplified term now but otherwise your point is well taken.
Push back against the OCD thing and request clearly and politely that your coach leave your stride alone.
The confirmation here is the alter your stride camp has zero evidence, mindless analysis and often seems to forget HS runners are a work in progress with many important stride changes a functional of physical maturity, running experience and human evolutionary background.
I guess the OP is a 21 minute master runner who has read too many blogs about running technique.
knower of trolls wrote:
I guess the OP is a 21 minute master runner who has read too many blogs about running technique.
Not at all mate. Just a high schooler who likes to run and also wants to dispel the myths about drills, form focus, hours of tedious technique work etc. I'm a believer in minimalism.
Auntie Coach wrote:
HardLoper wrote:You can't "think" your way to better form, it has to come naturally. Short hill sprints are the best. When you relax and try to run fast, your body figures out how to do it more efficiently. When you go uphill, it puts a lot less stress on the joints than going fast on flat ground.
Form matters, but there is too much horseshit written about it to believe everything you read... Keep in mind that most people have no way of actually measuring which techniques are more "efficient."
OK Canuck,
I'll start by saying that I agree with HardLoper (and your OP) 100%. I believe the form you're using now is most efficient for you, and probably, for a lot of chumps who do buy the 'long stride is better' or 'heel strike is better' BS. I also believe that the MB in general doesn't agree with me and most buy into the coach's spiel.
That having been said, the entire MB will be offended by my next point but you need to hear it. Will you heed my advice? No. Neither will HS poster jayz who will be pissed off that I'm throwing this out there, but hey, no one else is gonna tell you this.
The next step to getting better and being more successful is to ditch the coach. That's right, unload the coach, team, and school from your running career. This clown is only 'my coach' because you made him 'my coach'. You may think the school district gives the guy authority over anyone within the district boundaries. Not the case. At your age ran a lot, somewhat successfully, I might add, and never met my HS track coach. No cop ever tackled me and charged me with illegally training or racing without school sanction.
The school's sanction does not benefit you. It benefits them. Does it piss the school and coach off when the best distance runner who is elegible to be on the team runs on his own and wins races but not for their glory just his own? Yes it does. I know this from personal experience. I got to coach myself and do exactly what worked for me. I picked the events, never had to f-up a weekend running relay legs, never had to listen to the assistant football coach who needed a spring job and ended up with track blab about form.
Will you simply refuse to walk over to the track table next semester on sign-up day and run for only yourself? No. But now you can't say you didn't know it was an option!
It's an option, but in most cases it is a stupid one. Unless the coach is completely clueless, usually the athlete gets motivation from the teammates and atmosphere of being on a highschool team. Also, there are life lessons that can be learned from dealing with coaches, as dealing with a difficult coach can become similar to dealing with a difficult boss. In most cases, the athlete is able to train on their own plus with the team if they require supplementary training. The only time I'd recommend quitting the team if the coach is completely clueless and so are all the runners on the team. Then I would suggest finding a running club, as it's important to be around people who can push you and who you can be part of a team with.
its leg speed, or turnover that dictates speed, not stride length.
that research is solid,
drills are great, lifting is great, peripheral work is great, wrist flicks are ridiculous, and all of the chatter about leaving our team is hipster fol de rol.
slog miles at conversational pace, do sharp strides after your runs and run your short intervals like your balls have been scalded, and your long intervals at a reasonable facsimile of race specific pace.
go back and read the original works of arthur lydiard, he got it right.
egun wrote:
slog miles at conversational pace, do sharp strides after your runs and run your short intervals like your balls have been scalded, and your long intervals at a reasonable facsimile of race specific pace.
go back and read the original works of arthur lydiard, he got it right.
Your first part doesn't match the second part.
egun wrote:
its leg speed, or turnover that dictates speed, not stride length.
that research is solid,
Just think about the mathematics, and you will realize that speed is actually a function of stride length and turnover.
Here is a relevant article
http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/11/speed-stride-length-x-stride-frequency.htmlWith regards to the OP, Have you asked why he thinks that is important for you to do? It might be worth hearing his reasons for making that suggestion about your form.
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