Gerry Lindgren's advice to middle of the pack runners

I admire Lindgren's accomplishments. He had many highlights in his career.

But his advice is not good.

It's a fine strategy to take the lead at the half and go, but why sprint? Better to turn up the heat over the 2nd half, sure throw in some surges, but sprinting too early takes you out of the chase.

Don't forget what became of Alan Webb at the 2005 Worlds, with his 12.3 hundred from the 800 meter mark in the 1500 final.

http://youtu.be/abxUL7zz1nI

Horst Girth wrote:

I admire Lindgren's accomplishments. He had many highlights in his career.

But his advice is not good.

It's a fine strategy to take the lead at the half and go, but why sprint? Better to turn up the heat over the 2nd half, sure throw in some surges, but sprinting too early takes you out of the chase.

Don't forget what became of Alan Webb at the 2005 Worlds, with his 12.3 hundred from the 800 meter mark in the 1500 final.

http://youtu.be/abxUL7zz1nI

Thanks, I'd never seen that video.

Ramzi, the @#%$@#% cheater! he double Golded that year, if I recall. So ridiculous and that insane trademark doped up kick form. Always thought that was so unnatural.

That was painful to watch. Like the first Fast and the Furious movie,

"too soon, Junior, too soon."

The first runner I remember popularizing the mid-race burst(61 in a 5k) was Brendan Foster. It made sense for him only because he was markedly better than the field, and did not have a great kick. It was entertaining, though.

It is not a choice for a mid-packer.

Lindgrens comment might just as well be.."Hey guys here's a great secret! Sprint at the start and establish a lead, then just keep that up, and before you know it the finish line will be right there and you'll win!"

thinking about it wrote:

knowledgableXC wrote:

Terre Haute is where the NCAA Div.1 Champs are. It's a 10K

Well, not as bad advice as I thought. No way mid-packers in your local road race could pull this off but NCAA athletes might.

Yet take the lead at the 5k point with a crazy sprint!? It seems too soon.

What possibly makes you think that mid packers at NCAAs could use this advice at all. They are mid packers for a reason. Jesus.

I don't think we can relate to Gerry's sort of crazy. You just don't see the vision that he does, and that he actually DID. He's just telling people how he raced and that worked for him, but he was only midpack in the sense of being in "the middle of the front pack". From there he made outrageous attacks and sometimes it worked, but usually would not.

He raced like cyclists do. I came to cycling after running first and can tell you it was shocking to think that sprinting out to a 20-30 second lead in the middle of a race would be enough of a gap to hold everyone off for the win from there. You CAN sprint in the middle of a race for about 20 seconds ALL-OUT and create a very substantial gap and still be able to settle back into the previous race pace.

It usually doesn't work, but then, nothing usually works for most of us, right? So why not give it a go, which is to say attack wildly out of the lead group of 10 or so runners that are still together through 6K.

Blowing Rock Master! wrote:

Abc124 wrote:

Does he really believe in this stuff he's talking about here? That's the worst advice I've ever heard. A dead sprint at the half way point lol.

1988 Olympic 5,000m Final, John Ngugi ran the lap from 1,000m to 1,400m in 58.22. The worst advice you ever heard got him a gold medal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca9N-iqzXzA

Ngugi also won World Cross with this tactic. Webb won the 2004 Olympic Trials 1,500m this way. Yobes Ondieki won the 1991 World Championships 5,000m this way. Sammy Wanjiru won the 2008 Olympic Marathon this way. Etc., etc.

The worst advice you could give anyone for NCAA Cross is "follow Cheserek then sprint by him at the end."

Ngugi, Wanjiru, Webb? Mid packers? Jesus.

spotter of jokes wrote:

all of yous who pretended not to understand that Gerry was joking, well done you absolute trolls.

If someone thought Gerry was being serious with his advice, please bang your head against the wall

Thank you for being a mind reader. Please do not pollute these boards with your apologist speculation as to whether he was joking. Either prove it, or move on. Jesus.

jjjjjjjjjj wrote:

Several major points can be made about his advice, first, that many of these runners hold back mentally, "knowing" what the pecking order is, and thus underperform, second, that you can break many other runners mentally in this way, and third, that only a guy like Gerry Lindgren with his massive training mileage could really pull this off against a high quality NCAA field.

By your analysis, you make it clear that it is stupid advice because it only works for front packers, not mid packers. Yet you seem to defend his advice. Jesus.

You post is so complicated it makes my head hurt. What are you saying? Everyone gets it, if you are really fast, it might work, if you are mid pack it is stupid.

Are you defending him, or just stating the obvious? Jesus.

Growing a pair will overcome the basis physiology of why someone is mudpack and someone is a winner. If only it were that easy. Why don't we all just grow a pair and win the Olympics. Jesus.

Yeah, some guys under perform. So what exactly is your point - because it is totally unrelated to the idea that a mid pack guy should sprint as fast as he can halfway through the race, and doing so will help him win. Christ.

gerrytRockz wrote:

African runners do this all the time.Even average kenyans will try to stick with leaders as long as possible. There is a belief eventually they'll be able to hang on the whole way.

They throw in wild surges in road and track races. They don't all survive the pace.

Maybe it's the mentality of taking risks and trying different strategies is what we could all learn from. Run to win or take legal risks to try to win. Why are we all content with mid pack?

Why do you think choosing not to attempt a really stupid strategy means one is content with mid pack.

No one here said we should not try. We are saying that this strategy is stupid and will not at all help a midpack runner beat front guys. So why are you taking about accepting mid pack? Jesus.

mmmmmmmmmmmmm wrote:

gerrytRockz wrote:

African runners do this all the time.Even average kenyans will try to stick with leaders as long as possible. There is a belief eventually they'll be able to hang on the whole way.

They throw in wild surges in road and track races. They don't all survive the pace.

Maybe it's the mentality of taking risks and trying different strategies is what we could all learn from. Run to win or take legal risks to try to win. Why are we all content with mid pack?

Why do you think choosing not to attempt a really stupid strategy means one is content with mid pack.

No one here said we should not try. We are saying that this strategy is stupid and will not at all help a midpack runner beat front guys. So why are you taking about accepting mid pack? Jesus.

This has been discussed a number of times.

First, the Kenyans have numbers to their advantage. Survivorship bias.

Second, the Kenyans who do do this when it matters do it often for financial reasons. The potential to gain money offsets any costs/humiliation of crashing and fading.

The same cannot be said for American collegiates.

A middle-classed American middle-pack college XC runner wants to get the most out of their limited appearances on the big stage. College doesn't last forever and getting to Terra Haute is a scarce opportunity. It's not statistically in their interest to experiment with an insane strategy. They can try that out elsewhere... recreational road races, minor XC meets, or some sort of other competition that is Big but not the big one.

It's interesting to do in training and certainly, experimenting with different things might add versatility to their skillset. But, it can also be tremendously discouraging and lead to mental and physical fatigue and burnout. Take the example of Webb's 2005 nonsense--I for one, feel, now that it's all been said and done, that it did not benefit him any in the long term. After that, he had very few racing successes compared to a long slow painful demise of frustration.

What's this nonsense with surging in XC? Just run hard the entire race, pushing the limit, spittle on your face. That's way enough glory.

I used to follow him on facebook and for anyone that ever has you know that Gerry is certifiably insane,

How are you doing now post ocd surgery a while back....very interested.

Gerry Lindgren is definitely crazy. I think he lived his entire life a little detached from reality. That can happen to people scarred from heavy abuse as a child.

Its a little sad. He has nothing to offer now to the running community than crazy training and racing advise he filters through his imbalanced mind that he recalls worked for him.

He also shows you for a short time with hard work and single-minded belief a little crazy can make the difference.

Lots of great talents in this sport fall way short of their potential ultimately because they don't even have a little bit of that mindset.

I don't know who's more insane; Gerry Lindgren or the people who are actually commenting on what he said?

[quote]karhuuuuuu wrote:

The first runner I remember popularizing the mid-race burst(61 in a 5k) was Brendan Foster. It made sense for him only because he was markedly better than the field, and did not have a great kick. It was entertaining, though.

It is not a choice for a mid-packer'

He did manage to use it to defeat Viren though

Muk wrote:

Anyway, all these things where someone says that all runners have so much more potential if they just unlocked their inner potential are a load of crap.

You're being defeatist. If you think you have a lot of talent, then you're right. If you think you have no talent, then you're also right.