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Have you ever heard of a thing called money?
Nothing is secretive about their training camps. You can show up in Iten and run with them if you want. Here's the training plan: Track workout Tuesday, fartlek on Thursday, long run on Saturday.
The voice of Rod Sterling: wrote:
From the voice of Rod Sterling:
"Abbot Laboratories, THE FIRST Title Sponsor of the World Marathon Majors, is an American pharmaceuticals and health care products company. The global healthcare company that conducts innovative research
Taking on the moniker of the word meaning "Father", Abbot's international headquarters are located in....CHICAGO.
(que in Twilight Zone music: "doo-doo-doo-doo doo-doo-doo-doo")
^thread
The Kenyan marathoners race about as frequently as anyone else. I don't know what you expect-- when your goal is to run 2:03, you just can't be running 5 marathons a year like guys would've done in the past.
Also, how come Kenyans/Ethiopians are more successful and deeper than the Spanish/Portuguese/Russians/North Africans/Italians (all areas with documented systematic doping)? EPO was certainly used in those places, and there was no test, yet they still lost to the Kenyans. In fact, those places became much worse as EPO testing became better.
1960 Rome
Abebe Bikila (ETH) Rhadi Ben Abdesselam (MAR) Barry Magee (NZL)
1964 Tokyo
Abebe Bikila (ETH) Basil Heatley (GBR) Kokichi Tsuburaya (JPN)
1968 Mexico City
Mamo Wolde (ETH) Kenji Kimihara (JPN) Mike Ryan (NZL)
1972 Munich
Frank Shorter (USA) Karel Lismont (BEL) Mamo Wolde (ETH)
1976 Montreal
Waldemar Cierpinski (GDR) Frank Shorter (USA) Karel Lismont (BEL)
1980 Moscow
Waldemar Cierpinski (GDR Gerard Nijboer (NED) Dzhumanazarov (URS)
1984 Los Angeles
Carlos Lopes (POR) John Treacy (IRL) Charlie Spedding (GBR)
1988 Seoul
Gelindo Bordin (ITA) Douglas Wakiihuri (KEN) Ahmed Salah (DJI)
1992 Barcelona
Hwang Young-cho (KOR) Koichi Morishita (JPN) Stephan Freigang (GER)
1996 Atlanta
Josia Thugwane (RSA) Lee Bong-ju (KOR) Erick Wainaina (KEN)
2000 Sydney
Gezahegne Abera (ETH) Erick Wainaina (KEN) Tesfaye Tola (ETH)
2004 Athens
Stefano Baldini (ITA) Mebrahtom Keflezighi (USA) Vanderlei de Lima (BRA)
2008 Beijing
Samuel Wanjiru (KEN) Jaouad Gharib (MAR) Tsegay Kebede (ETH)
2012 London
Stephen Kiprotich (UGA) Abel Kirui (KEN) Wilson Kipsang Kiprotich (KEN)
cheatersunite wrote:
the way the kenyan marathon groups use secretive training camps (mutai), it reminds me of Ma's army.
There is nothing secretive about it. It's just where they are from! Everyone knows where they are - its just not near any well developed towns!
In 1986, the Boston winner won 60K plus a new car. That was a pretty substantial sum of money for a poor Kenyan in 1986.
No money? wrote:
In 1986, the Boston winner won 60K plus a new car. That was a pretty substantial sum of money for a poor Kenyan in 1986.
And two years later a long line of mostly African domination began.
Imagine that!
Bears wrote:
These drugs have an effect, you admit. Why then is it not possible that some of these drugs could impact ones running?
Drugs have killed millions of people, nothing to do with my admission of it. Of course if you're dead that will impact your running.
You say big pharma is not science, but then go on to say insulin is not necessary. Something that has no connection to big pharma and is easily tested in any lab. Cells not given insulin die, unable to transport sugar in.
Heh, I didn't say insulin is not necessary. I said medical intervention with artificial injections are not only not necessary, but are harmful and dangerous.
Thats pure science in its simplest form, and anyone that desired can readily test this hypothesis.
It is basic physiology, nothing to do with medical pseudo science. Let's say they test and find you have water in your veins, then say you need injections of water (IVs), another totally stupid concept.
know-it-all joe wrote:
J.R. wrote:Big pharma is not science.
You're dodging. No one brought up "big pharma" except you.
I'm dodging myself?
J.R. wrote:
know-it-all joe wrote:You're dodging. No one brought up "big pharma" except you.
I'm dodging myself?
No, you're dodging questions directed at you instead of answering them, knocking down a "Big Pharma" straw man you created.
Answer this:
LM wrote:
1) Type I diabetics do not produce insulin.
2) Insulin is necessary for cells to take up glucose
3) Cells without glucose die
Which of those do you dispute?
know-it-all joe wrote:
Answer this:
Big pharma is not science.
Yes I believe that it is possible:- That Cathal Lombard trained hard, but wrong- Besides EPO, Cathal Lombard changed coaches, and radically changed his training (less mileage, more bounding)- Abraham Kiprotich's progression doesn't look too different than Ryan Hall- I didn't bother to look at Hassan Hirt -- but in both cases, we need to understand what else changedThe problem here is a lack of control over other variables. You pretend EPO was the only change.I don't hold any position -- I just say it is also possible based on the existing evidence.And it's possible to change your training and mentality, without EPO, and improve.No EPO study I've seen controls for placebo effect.Lance put a sophisticated program in place. Besides any physical changes, this clearly put him in a different mental state.
You are not answering his question?
Do you not see his answer?
'Here's the training plan: Track workout Tuesday, fartlek on Thursday, long run on Saturday.'
They do more workouts than that
I never pretended that taking EPO was the only thing that changed because common sense will tell anyone that in real-world circumstances you are not going to be able control things things so closely. Note the use of the words "largely because" in my posts.
Yet again, you are asking for a controlled clinical trial on elite athletes to convince yourself on the effects of EPO but you know that this will never happen with the current ethical regulations in place for scientific/clinical studies.
Despite knowing this you do not want to look more closely at what has been going on with elite athletes who have tested positive for EPO. For you, what happened was not under the conditions of a controlled clinical trial so therefore any explanation is plausible (you say that you don't hold any position) to explain their performance improvements.
For the third time, why did no one else trained by the same coach as Cathal make such a dramatic breakthough? Why did his brother, who was also a decent runner, not make the same sort of breakthrough?
WRT to Lance Armstrong do you really believe that his TdF performances were largely because of a change in "mental state" rather than the sophisticated doping regimen he put in place? i.e. if he could have changed his "mental state" without doping then do you think that he would have still have destroyed all his competitors (who were doping) in 7 TdFs?
[quote]rekrunner wrote:
Yes I believe that it is possible:
- That Cathal Lombard trained hard, but wrong
- Besides EPO, Cathal Lombard changed coaches, and radically changed his training (less mileage, more bounding)
- Abraham Kiprotich's progression doesn't look too different than Ryan Hall
- I didn't bother to look at Hassan Hirt -- but in both cases, we need to understand what else changed
The problem here is a lack of control over other variables. You pretend EPO was the only change.
I don't hold any position -- I just say it is also possible based on the existing evidence.
And it's possible to change your training and mentality, without EPO, and improve.
No EPO study I've seen controls for placebo effect.
Lance put a sophisticated program in place. Besides any physical changes, this clearly put him in a different mental state.
[quote]
Interesting article:
"Her on and off partner, Noah Busienei has already come out publicly to say his repeated warnings to her to stop engaging in the vice went unheeded and led to their eventual separation."
and regarding her management/coaching team:
"Earlier this year, AK decided to expel Berardelli and sanction Rosa following mounting claims the stable was engaged in the vice, but the Italian trainer returned back to the country raising eyebrows."
None of that is true - Kenyan journalism is abysmal and there is zero accountability for what they write. Yes there were heated discussions wirh AK but at no point was Claudio kicked out.
There is every chance that the truth is exactly the opposite of what has been written and the on/off partner was the one involved (as he seems to be saying that he knew about it all along.
That is speculation on my part but the article from this journalist the same.
You can tell that it is not true becuase AK cannot expel anyone! They are a sports administration body they have no power or mandate over immigration issues!
RIP: D3 All-American Frank Csorba - who ran 13:56 in March - dead
RENATO can you talk about the preparation of Emile Cairess 2:06
Running for Bowerman Track Club used to be cool now its embarrassing
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year
Hats off to my dad. He just ran a 1:42 Half Marathon and turns 75 in 2 months!
2017 World 800 champ Pierre-Ambroise Bosse banned 1 year for whereabouts failures
2024 College Track & Field Open Coaching Positions Discussion