Benjamin Nushmutt wrote:
I can't believe this is even a question. Might as well say, rank the following objects in circumference:
The sun
The earth
A basketball
A marble
Anyway, I'll spell it out here for the truly braindead:
400 - Pre
800 - Pre
1500 - Pre
3K - Pre
5K - Pre
10K - Pre
I am the only person here who even watched Without Limits?
Peer Mediator:
This is an excellent and thorough analysis. You were patient enough to bring up (and type out!) what others were not.
Other than his name being Mike MCLEOD, you got it all spot on!!
newname wrote:
Dixie Gnormose wrote:
Come on! What a waste of time.
What I tell fans of football, etc, is that one of the beautiful things about track and field is it's objectivity.
There is no place for the LeBron vs MJ vs Magic nonsense.
We know - yes KNOW - to the 1/100th of a second, EXACTLY who beats whom. Speculation has no place, unlike in subjectively judged non-sports like figure skating!
I can't believe that nobody understands that HGH and EPO were not available (and therefore not routinely used) during THREE of these athletes time.
Pre ran in the early '70s - when 13:15 would have been a WR or a yearly best every year. Coe and Ovett ran during the '70s and '80s - during the 80s just one man ran under 13:00 and he did it just once, in all of the '80s and ALL OF HISTORY.
During Rupp's era, though he has struggled to break 13:00, it is done routinely, sometimes by 5 people in a race. In the '90s it was even worse.
Ovett and Coe were clearly 800/1500 specialists. Ovett once won 45 1500m races in a row. He had better range than Coe and would have beaten him in a serious race at 2k, 3k, 2M, and 5k. AT 800/1500 it could go either way.
They both would have run under 13:00, perhaps even in THEIR era if they had run it seriously at their peak. If they were running now, they would run 12:40-12:50. Something Rupp has not done, even though he has had every advantage available in America for the last 16 yrs.
Pre would also break 13:00 and would be a 3:47 miler with all the PEDs that are on offer now.
Rupp's indoor times don't count because they are on tuned, banked tracks. With plenty of attempts at it, Rupp has run what outdoors? 3:34, 3:52 and 7:43? You don't think that Pre could run those times with the same advantages that Rupp has enjoyed?
You realize that he ACTUALLY DID run 3:38 (11th place finish), 3:54 (2nd to Wottle after rabbiting for him) and 7:42.
His best times for 3k, 2M, 3M, 5k, 6M, and 10k were all ARs and were all set in 1974. His last complete season. His AR at 2k was set just before he died. His 1500 and Mile bests were run in 1973. Do you not think he would have gotten better than the 23-year-old version of himself? The 1974 version that set PRs and ARs at 3k, 2M, 3M, 5k, 6M, and 10k? He was 5 seconds off the WR for 10k for Christ's sake in a race in the SPRING he ran by himself?!?
What were Rupp's PRs at age 23?
Rupp is great, no doubt, his consistency is amazing. But so was the guy who ran 8:41.6y 45 yrs ago (this is still the third fastest HS performance ever is it not? After Fernandez and Virgin?) and then went on to win 4 NCAA titles and 3 in XC.
With the drugs (and TUEs) of today, Pre would be running well under 13:00 and well under 27:00. Would he beat Rupp? Who knows? But I do know that his times (across the board) and his kick would improve if he had the benefits that today's runners do.
Peer Mediator wrote:Coe proved in 81 with his WR and solo 1:44.0 (12.3 last 100m)
Peer Mediator wrote:Ovett in 78-80 could probably have run close to 47.0 (46.8 relay in 79)
Well the first clash in 78, Ovett was probably at his prime (I tend to think he maintained a pretty equivalent peak from 78-80)
Coe proved in 81 with his WR and solo 1:44.0 (12.3 last 100m) that he would have beaten Ovett most of the time, barring accidents, in his prime
Having blown it in Moscow, I find it very hard to even consider he'd run like that again over Ovett, as seen a week later in the 1500. So, Coe 1st, Ovett 2nd, Rupp 3rd and Pre 4th
At 1500 I'd plump for Coe again. He showed in his practically solo Stockholm run of 3:31 in 81, that he was capable of running and winning from the front in a 3.75 lap race, even off a suicidally fast opening 2 laps
At 3000m it gets a lot closer and more interesting. If there is a rabbit and/or a fast race with a field more than just the 4 of them, then on paper it looks as if Rupp would be capable of running the fastest. If it is slower (7:37 -7:45) then Ovett's kick could get him past Rupp in the closing stages
Ovett looked very easy when beating Rono & setting the then 2 mile WR of 8:13.5 in 78
That was equivalent to c. 7:41 for 3k
and I'd say he could have run 4-6 secs faster that night
He ran a handful of indoor 3000m on the appalling wooden 200m track at Cosford as training runs. When he ran that 7:54 in March the last km was 2:30, and it was probably worth a good 5 secs faster on a decent 400 track
Coe also beat Coghlan (83 World 5000m Champion) and McCloud (10000m Olympic silver medalist) in a 4 Mile road race (17:55) in Ireland at the end of '78; beating the then World record holder at 3000m and 2 miles, Brendan Foster's course record by 9 seconds; off a season running only 800m races! Both Coghlan & Mcloud had run 13.20 that previous season
Coe also won the famous Vigevano road race twice (7.5km) in 1980 & 1983, recording 18.28 for the 6.7km; 27:33 pace for 10,000m). In the former he easily beat Cova
So in a 7:30 race I think Rupp would edge it, but if it drifted to 7:36 or slower, the I think Coe or Ovett could have a chance of winning
Over 5000m then Rupp should win in a fast race, but again if it drifts to 13:10 - 13:30 then Pre comes into contention as well as the 2 Brits
Ovett was capable of 13:10 in 86, when way past his prime
Back in 80 I think he could have run faster in the right race
I think Coe's potential at 5000 was equally as good as Ovett's
and Frank Horwill (the chief National middle distance coach in UK during the 80's)...
mark b wrote:400 - Coe no debate. Made the finals of the AAA championships one year running just over 46 seconds
800 - a toss up between Coe and Ovett. Coe ran much faster but in major championships Ovett beat Coe 2-1
15oo/mile - again atoss up betwen coe and Ovett. the other two aren't even close in either a fast or slow race.
3000 - here thing get a bit more interesting. At his peaf Ovett set a WR 2 mile jogging past Rono in the straight and waving to the crowd. would have to go with him unless the race was super fast then Rupp might have a chance. But at no distance would rupp out kick Coe or Ovett unless the pace was pretty fast from the gun. I don't know where this notion of Rupp having a tremendous kick comes from. I haven't seen any evidence of it!
5000 - give this to Rupp (with the provisos already mentioned) Ovett's pb is faster than Pre's? And Ovett only seriously took up the distance in 1986 when it was obvious that he simply wasn't the same runner as before the LA games in 1984. His illness at LA clearly hampered him for the rest of his career.
rojo wrote:I'll have to ask John Kellogg about it. I mean asking a 1:41 guy to run a 3k is tough . Next time I talk to John Kellogg I'll ask him this, if I walked up to Coe and said, "In 6 months you are having a match race with Galen Rupp at 3000, with no rabbits. The loser will be executed."
Who would win. That's the way I think these hypotheticals should work. NOt time trials, we're talking mano v mano.
Soooooomeone is off his meds...
newname wrote:
Pre would also break 13:00 and would be a 3:47 miler with all the PEDs that are on offer now.
The widespread use of amphetamines began in postwar Japan and quickly spread to other countries. Modified ("designer") amphetamines gained popularity since the 1960s, such as MDA and PMA.[5] MDMA was rediscovered and popularized by the American chemist Alexander Shulgin in 1965, after which it was used for some time in psychotherapy sessions.[4] In 1970, the United States adopted "the Controlled Substances Act" that limited non-medical use of amphetamines.
'there is no clear 100m-out mark on track '
There was no clear 300m mark for Ryun that did not stop you spouting your spurious 36 secs
said88 owns the video and said 36.54 for the last 300m after timing it many times
ventolin^3 wrote:
Peer Mediator wrote:Coe proved in 81 with his WR and solo 1:44.0 (12.3 last 100m)
utter drivel
coe did not finish in 12.3 in his 1'44.06
try more like 13-flat
there is no clear 100m-out mark on track & no wide shot of him running last bend
he ran last 51.9/26.1/26.0
he did not run a faster last 200 than preceding one & 12.3 finish is nonsense
ukathleticscoach wrote:
'there is no clear 100m-out mark on track '
There was no clear 300m mark for Ryun that did not stop you spouting your spurious 36 secs
Peer Mediator wrote:No moron, completely wrong again
I have the race on dvd and on it you can see the 200m mark
(which was published in AW at the time anyway ~ 25.6)
and also the 110m & 90m mark, from which you can get a last 100m
Anyone who can't see that Coe doesn't kick with 100 to go and thus fathom that his last 100m must have been considerably quicker than the penultimate one (not to mention he pulls about 15m clear of Cook) is either blind or needs their eyes testing. So I recommend a trip to Specsavers old man
He ran 25.6 (13.3/12.3)
Peer Mediator wrote:On the first lap of Coe's 1:44.0 you clearly see the 110m line (2 strides before a flag)
and the 100m line (at the end of 3 hurdles on the infield)
Using these 2 markers as a guide, he passes the same spots at 1:30.4 with 110m to go & 1:31.6 with 100m to go
You can also see him crossing the 80m from home line in 1:34.1
These are all much easier to read on my own version of the race. The transfer of the race posted on Youtube probably lost clarity
Working with the above numbers ~
Last 110m = 13.6 (1:44.0 - 1:30.4) - which = 12.3 pace for 100m
Last 100m = 12.4
Last 80m = 9.9 - which = 12.3 pace for 100m.
So his last 100m was 12.3/12.4
ukathleticscoach wrote:'there is no clear 100m-out mark on track '
There was no clear 300m mark for Ryun that did not stop you spouting your spurious 36 secs
Bump. This was a great LetsRun thread. It had a little bit of everything.
no one wrote:
3k = Ovett - sit ande kick, every time. I would even consider the 5k iffy for Rupp w Ovett having some chance. Same tactic
Does Ovett get to take some of Sleazy Sal's injections and patches?
