The BYU phenomen--alternate theories

Axcfersdery wrote:

90 degrees in Utah is comfortable. 90 degrees in North Carolina is brutal.

I wouldn't call 90 degrees in Utah "comfortable," but yes, a dry heat beats the heck out of a humid heat. I always thought I was a great heat runner when I lived in Utah. Then when I moved to South Florida, I learned what miserably hot weather really was.

I ran at the Y. First year was under Hirschi and when I got back from my mission Ed was the coach. I didn't know him since he had been at Weber when I started at they Y and I went to high school out of state. There were two main disadvantages of going on a mission, which are probably related. First, it's really hard to get back into shape. I ran maybe twice in two years. I put on 25+ pounds and while they came off fairly quickly it took about a year to get into pre-mission shape. Some guys were faster but that's typical. That means starting my junior year I was in the same shape at the end of my freshmen. Second, there was a huge attrition rate. I had a solid freshmen class and maybe 1/2 stayed on more than a year after their missions. The guys that dropped were solid 1:52-54 800, 4:12-4:16 milers in high school. Did I have an advantage of being older by the time I graduated at 24? Maybe. But it was tough coming back.

Ed is a great coach. I was a 4:20 high school miler who ended up at 3:46 for the 15. Ed's training was fantastic. Team unity was very good. I will say the team tends to underperform at nationals but overall I think it's a great program and I'm proud to still support it.

I agree. As a high schooler, Ed was ahead of the boom of great Utah high school runners. When he set a new State record on the Sugarhouse Park course, he was nearly a minute ahead of the second-pace class 4A runner. Right out of high school he placed third at the World Junior Cross Country Championship, and was the first American. If anyone was going to come back from a church mission and still go on to do great things in running, it was Ed. I've read that he had a great high school coach, too, and Ed probably emulates his coach along with everything he learned as a world class runner. I think he was U.S. runner of the year several times. Here's a video showing Ed conducting a typical BYU workout session:

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/249744-Workout-Wednesday-Season-7/video/656661-3-BYU-1K-Repeats-at-altitude

Not all the BYU runners are LDS but the LDS culture has a strong effect on even the non LDS portions of the population.

anonymous poster wrote:

Mean elevation in the state of Utah: 6100 feet. I think you've got some interesting ideas. Is Luke Puskedra LDS? I don't think so. I think Utah is just a great place to train, really.

So.... BYU isn't the only school in Utah with a huge number of LDS kids. Why don't we broaden our view to encompass other Utah schools?

Weber State, for example, has had a great history, especially with the NCAA steeple record. Their women were as high as 13th in the NCAA in cross 2 years ago.

Southern Utah has won the mountain region xc title, has a Bowerman winner, and will probably be in the top 25 in the NCAA this fall. Plus, they're at 6000 feet, unlike the Wasatch Front.

I doubt being older is an advantage for BYU runners. Josh Rohatinsky didn't hardly exercise, much less run, at all during his LDS mission. It can probably be assumed to be the case for most other missionaries. Military vets, as mentioned previously, would have an advantage because they have to stay in good physical shape as part of their jobs. The lifestyle of avoiding alcohol and late nights surely does help, though.

Why don't guys on a mission keep running? Is there some dumb rule where they are only allowed to harass the locals religiously with no time for training?

CWG wrote:

Why don't guys on a mission keep running? Is there some dumb rule where they are only allowed to harass the locals religiously with no time for training?

Missionaries have to stay with their assigned companion 24/7. If that companion doesn't want to run, you don't get to run.

I was a pretty good runner before and after my mission. I think I was only able to run 2 times on my mission. In three of the five cities where I lived, I was able to ride a bike quite a bit. I went from 145 lbs to 175 on my mission to the Netherlands and Belgium due to good food.

I would say the mission didn't do wonders for my athletic life. I ran a 3:07 marathon one year before my mission (age 18) and a 2:55 marathon one year after my mission (age 22). I don't think age accounted for the improvement as I trained much longer and harder the for the marathon after my mission.

SUU is 1/2 mormon 1/2 non-mormon. They have had to expand their recruiting because BYU hogs all the Utah recruits...

okokokok wrote:

So.... BYU isn't the only school in Utah with a huge number of LDS kids. Why don't we broaden our view to encompass other Utah schools?

Weber State, for example, has had a great history, especially with the NCAA steeple record. Their women were as high as 13th in the NCAA in cross 2 years ago.

Southern Utah has won the mountain region xc title, has a Bowerman winner, and will probably be in the top 25 in the NCAA this fall. Plus, they're at 6000 feet, unlike the Wasatch Front.

You're right about Weber State. Brad Barton (who just ran a near-masters record 4:16 mile at the age of 48) and Paul Pilkington ran there. When I was being recruited by several Utah schools, I met Coach Hislop and Paul Pilkington and almost took Weber State's offer. Looking back, I regret that I didn't. It would have been a better environment, and probably better coaching, if I had gone to Weber State rather than the University of Utah.

I coached a Mormon gal who was a local high school talent. She and her parents decided to home school her during her last two years in HS.

She did okay under my tutelage but could have done better. I over estimated her work ethic. There always seemed to be conflicts with church and family activities. She wouldn't race on Sunday's and was banned from HS meets ( local rules of competition ).

She had an idea that she might run for BYU and went out to Utah with her parents to talk to Eyestone. He was very friendly but he picked up on her work ethic right away. This according to her father.

The girls run 60-70 mpw as freshman, he said. You have to be ready for that when you show up.

That sort of blew my runner away. No fooling around at a division one school.

In the end she went to BYU, but not as a runner.

I coached her for about one year. She did well in her age group in local Saturday road races. After that we went our separate ways.

Axcfersdery wrote:

90 degrees in Utah is comfortable. 90 degrees in North Carolina is brutal.

Just to be clear here, there aren't many summer days in Utah when the high temperature on the Wasatch Front stays at 90 or lower. The evenings and mornings do cool off some, probably more so than in the humid south. And 90 in Utah may be comfortable for walking around, but definitely not for running.

makes sense wrote:

BYU guys returning from missions do receive an advantage in terms of their age. 24/25 year old guys are simply stronger than 18/19 year old guys.

Not really a fair comparison. The relevant comparison is a 24/25 yo senior at BYU versus a 22/23 yo senior at another school. At that point, there's still a difference, but a much smaller difference.

I wonder why wrote:

makes sense wrote:

BYU guys returning from missions do receive an advantage in terms of their age. 24/25 year old guys are simply stronger than 18/19 year old guys.

Not really a fair comparison. The relevant comparison is a 24/25 yo senior at BYU versus a 22/23 yo senior at another school. At that point, there's still a difference, but a much smaller difference.

+1

I've always wondered if someone could explain the physiological advantage they think a 24/25 year old has over 22/23. Because there isn't any.

Relkcits wrote:

What about the BYU phenowomen are they a phenomenon too?

I know you're just trying to be clever, but, for folks who may not understand, I didn't insert them in the original question because comparatively few of them go on missions. There's not the same age issue here as there is with the men.

I wonder why wrote:

Relkcits wrote:

What about the BYU phenowomen are they a phenomenon too?

I know you're just trying to be clever, but, for folks who may not understand, I didn't insert them in the original question because comparatively few of them go on missions. There's not the same age issue here as there is with the men.

Actually, he was just making a pun about the fact that you invented a word ("phenomen") in your thread title. The word you're looking for is phenomenon.

Interesting thread, though!

hold the phone wrote:

Actually, he was just making a pun about the fact that you invented a word ("phenomen") in your thread title. The word you're looking for is phenomenon.

Okay, I see that now. Carry on while I feel stupid for a moment :-).

I am LDS and did go on a Mormon mission. You do not gain a competitive advantage by going on a mission. Most missionaries get almost no exercise. That usually occurs one day a week and you have a busy schedule otherwise. Little running for 2 years does not help you unless you need to heal from overuse injuries.

What advantage it can provide is focus. Missionaries who are 21 have an advantage in focusing on priorities. When out on a mission you confront every walk of life from the poorest of the poor to the richest of the rich. Your priorities and maturity level are therefore at a much higher level than most other 21 or 22 year old athletes. So many other athletes at that age that I remember were looking for the party life, and lacked the same focus.

So if you want a reason for BYU success, it would probably be good coaching, some altitute, mature athletes who have a greater awareness of what they want out of life and an appreciation for where they are at at that moment.

I went on a two year Mormon mission, I also ran on the men's team at BYU before and after Ed became the distance coach (Sherald James). I will say that the mission makes a young man mature quickly emotionally. I didn't run a step while out. It can be an advantage if it's the right guy, but can also be too much time away from social life and many struggle with social feasting when they get home and priorities on training can suffer a bit.

Bottom line- Ed is an elite coach with a great athlete pedigree. He also learned from some great coaches along the way (chic hislop/pat shane etc)

He is ideally suited to get the most out of his men.

The altitude helps, the lifestyle helps, the support system helps.

There is no one factor but many. If you find the right guys with the right ingredients, you are going to be successful anywhere provided you don't completely drop the ball.