Chris Solinsky leaving Portland - accepts coaching gig at William and Mary

Giddy wrote:

I'm curious if we would even be having this debate had Sol been an African or America had a plethora of sub 13 talent each year.

Exactly. Short careers are the norm, long consistent careers are the exception. Yet people always want to believe the opposite.

Hey, I agree! (Since "Easy Kip" seems to be referring to a certain Kipketer who isn't taking it easy) I just think it's bogus that people think big, training/biomechanic caused injuries are "normal" and that athletes should just bounce back from them. This is a ret*rded mindset.

I'm not angry at all, just been active and drinking some coffee tonight, and...

I've had these thoughts about the solinsky injury for a loooong time now. Just haven't taken the time to voice it out on numerous threads, but it has to be said at this point. It just astounds me the people who almost absentmindedly, expect, with some flavor of normalcy, to Solinsky to just return back to where he was.

If there are diminishing returns for injury prevention, especially of the very serious kind, then, at least, people need to adjust their expectations about what can be expected post-injury.

Your opinion on the hamstring is definitely sound. I would imagine 10/10 times the athlete will never return to the top. I just think if anyone had the possibility to return to their highest level, Solinsky would because of the support he had.

Schumacher is not the only coach who seems to have little understanding of the physiology of training. Of all the highly funded coaches, Salazar is the only one who seems to use science in developing a training program. When Rupp broke the AR in the 2 mile and followed it with mile repeats, his times were not so much impressive as they were expected. An athlete of his caliber should be able to run those times in the mile at the higher end of their lactate threshold. Salazar knows exactly where to train his athletes to manipulate their physiology. I listened to Gags and Ponsonby talk at the 2013 American Distance Summit, and from what i've heard Schumacher's athletes say, I've come to believe these coaches have little understanding of the physiology of training. There is no long term success of their athletes. Salazar on the other hand has had high success over a long period of time. It is hard to make an argument Salazar's camp is using PEDs. Leave you with this example: If you take Usain Bolt, no matter who coached him, that guy was going to be in the olympics. The difference was being in the olympics or winning gold in WR time leaving everyone to look like amateurs.

Kipketer_Pumpkin_Eater wrote:

I just think it's bogus that people think big, training/biomechanic caused injuries are "normal" and that athletes should just bounce back from them. This is a ret*rded mindset.

you hit the nail on the head

Easy Kip wrote:

Exactly. Short careers are the norm, long consistent careers are the exception. Yet people always want to believe the opposite.

short careers are the norm because instead of using the body to tell us where an athlete's fitness is, most simply prescribe arbitrary paces based off what? races or where we want the athlete to be performing. start using physiology to determine how an athlete is to perform in a training session. if you're training properly, there are no long term, short term careers. You're simply making the gains in fitness as fast as your body adapts from the training. Short careers are the norm, yet it is wrong they are the norm. If coaches used more physiology rather than theories they've collected over the years, we would see longer less injury ridden careers from athletes. notice i said less injury not complete disappearance.

Some interesting discussion here of Solinsky, his training, injuries, etc. I appreciate the insights. A further question, beyond the comparisons already made -- of Solinsky with previous versions of himself, of Solinsky with his competitors, etc.: In other sports I follow, when athletes incur serious injuries their future prospects are often compared with others who have incurred similarly serious injuries. I cannot think of another elite distance runner who has had such a serious hamstring injury. Perhaps some of you know of such cases? Given this injury, I can't really imagine an athlete coming back to previous elite form at all, and to approach such form even partially (e.g., within about 20 sec/mile for track 10k) is something of an accomplishment. Regardless of whatever one thinks of this athlete, his history, etc., this injury seems like it would be a career-ender, at least at the elite level.

Raise of hands if you've had a serious hamstring injury (surgery or not) and found it extremely difficult to get back to the same form?

I've had just about every serious injury in the book and successfully comeback many many times from serious injuries. The hamstring injury ranks up there as the most "performance debilitating" and longest time to comeback from. Your stride is different; you lose the power in your step. The hamstrings are big muscles- you don't realize how important they are until they're shot.

^ agree. I was nothing more than a mediocre club runner. Had one hamstring injury, which was minor especially by comparison w Solinsky-type injury. But even though it was minor, I was surprised at how debilitating it was & how long it took to heal completely. The best runner in our club, who made it to national-level in his best distance, was also a big guy, kind of like Solinsky. His career was also ended by serious & chronic hamstring problems. But his injuries were nothing like Solinsky's.

Flat Stanley wrote:

Not heard Solinsky say his leg is really affecting his come back. Has he actually said his leg is still affecting his biomechanics? If it was still affecting him really badly that may explain the regression in performance but even that is a push. His drop off in performance has been massive. I think all those Nike guys, Jerrys included, were using dubious methods to boost performance.

I haven't heard Solinsky say he brushes his teeth twice per day, but I assume that he does without him going into it.

You are an idiot and you are what is wrong with most fans and you are what is wrong with this message board.

rojo- think back to the early 80s- who won NY 3x plus Boston, set American track on fire in the 5K and 10K, took 4th in world xc, only to flame out by age 24? Maybe Solinsky needs to try a little of that prozac. From what I see he keeps saying the hammy is not an issue. Has anybody actually seen that divot or could that have been photoshopped?

DOP wrote:

The doping comments I made were mainly to stimulate debate. I don't really think Solinsky doped. I just find it frustrating that people just assume Rupp is doping yet people who regularly beat him or ran faster than him were clean no questions asked. It does not make sense and is complete double standards. Just because Rupp is a bit feminine, is a bit geekey and does not look or talk how Americans want their hero's to, he is fair game to be slandered, ridiculed and abused. All Jerrys guys are assumed to be clean because they fit peoples image of how they want runners to be.

You make some good points but miss the nuances of the doping conversation. Similarly, last week, when I was on Kostetskaya for being a doper because her mom ran 3:54, someone said, "Oh ok, all fast people are dopers, then what about Radcliffe?"

The difference is Kostekoya's comes from Russia where the dopoing positives are through the roof.

Why is Salazar/Rupp much more of a suspect in most people's eyes than Jerry/Solinsky? It's pretty simple and has nothing to do with "They fit people's image of how they want runners to be."

1) Salazar worked with Slaney who was busted.

2) Salazar was part of AWest where there was known drug usage.

3) Salazar consistently has made it clear that it's not just about running - whether it's medications for allergies or thryoid or devices like anti-gravity treadmills, under water treadmills, altitude tents, etc.

The science of #3 very well could be legal but it leads to naturally way more discussions of it than the other group.

4) Rupp was nowhere near as good as Solinsky in HS. Solinsky won Footlocker by 21 seconds.

quickrunner789 wrote:

Chris Solinsky has accepted an assistant coaching position at William and Mary and will be heading east! His wife just posted about it on Facebook.

Who?

ryan foreman wrote:

The downside is the point when they realize that they are never going to improve on their bests. Its easy to see that a depression can sink in. They continue to compete for a time out of habit and its what they know. But they are just going through the motions. They are doing the training, but the training is poor and lacking intensity.

Good point.

I can relate. Weldon and I have a conference call every MOnday to talk about the website. Today, he was in the car coming back from a run. I said, "how far did you run?" He said, "30 minutes. What do i gain from running more?"

When you don't have a PR to train for it's tough. I remember reading a NY Times article a few years back about how ex-elite athletes are often in horrible shape later in life as their exercise was goal oriented not fitness oriented.

Solinsky obviously isn't in this bought but it's similar. He still has the dream of the Olympics, but the dream of being the best in the world is so much more powerful.

Hopefully the coaching will be a nice distraction, he can get his runs in and get a little bit of the magic back for the 2016 Trials.

rojo wrote:

Earlier that year, he became the first white man to break 27:00.

Salah Hissou ran 26:38 back in 1996

rojo wrote:

4) Rupp was nowhere near as good as Solinsky in HS. Solinsky won Footlocker by 21 seconds.

This is a horrible argument. Being better in High School than someone, and then having those positions reversed, does not signify that doping caused the positions to change.

Look at York HS. They have great performances while there, but then struggle to translate that success beyond. Does that mean HSers who went on to become better than York students were doping? I hope you don't think so.

Solinsky definitely put in more quality and quantity than Rupp during this period. That's the most obvious cause for Rupp to become better. It doesn't mean that Rupp is not doping, but it provides no evidence that he is.

rojo wrote:

Good point.

I can relate. Weldon and I have a conference call every MOnday to talk about the website. Today, he was in the car coming back from a run. I said, "how far did you run?" He said, "30 minutes. What do i gain from running more?"

A pair.

rojo wrote:

4) Rupp was nowhere near as good as Solinsky in HS. Solinsky won Footlocker by 21 seconds.

Rupp ran 4:01 for the mile in HS. He also ran 13:37 for 5000m in HS (8:42 pace for 3200m).

Rupp was 'nowhere near as good as Solinsky in HS'?

Rupp is the best american HS distance runner in history.

Rupp is the best american college distance runner in history.

Rupp is the best american distance runner in history.

Your shrill shrieks look silly, especially when you spend your time fan-boying over Jamaicans who have actually been busted for doping.

Maybe Rupp will get busted someday, but until then why don't you try to help Weldon keep the site running.

The Champ wrote:

rojo wrote:

4) Rupp was nowhere near as good as Solinsky in HS. Solinsky won Footlocker by 21 seconds.

Rupp ran 4:01 for the mile in HS. He also ran 13:37 for 5000m in HS (8:42 pace for 3200m).

Rupp was 'nowhere near as good as Solinsky in HS'?

Rupp is the best american HS distance runner in history.

Rupp is the best american college distance runner in history.

Rupp is the best american distance runner in history.

Your shrill shrieks look silly, especially when you spend your time fan-boying over Jamaicans who have actually been busted for doping.

Maybe Rupp will get busted someday, but until then why don't you try to help Weldon keep the site running.

Jim Ryun is the best american HS distance runner in history. In fact, he has been named the best american HS athlete in any sport.

Gerry Lindgren is the best american college distance runner in history (Ryun being the only runner to ever beat him in a championship race).

Rupp is a great distance runner, but he needs to win a few more races.