Author: sbeefyk1
Subject: RE: African Age Cheating
Message:
You can't claim age cheating.
Do you really think these kids and families purposely do not keep records when their child is born? Do you think the day these kids are born into a family with a yearly income of $1,000 that they say, "I am going to lie about your birth date so you can be a professional runner in 20 years."
??????????
No, they go back and change it later.
Author: miopia
Subject: RE: African Age Cheating
Message:
who gives a shit? no one gets hurt.
Barnabas Kirui of Mississippi ran in the 2005 World University Games for a Kenyan University (Izmir)
http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/kenya/barnabas-kirui-211510#progression
Then enrolled at Mississippi as a true freshman in late 2006 and competed for five years. Seems like he won lots of titles that should have been won by legitimate College athletes. No one gets hurt? Tell that to Andrew Lemoncello and Aaron Aguayo at the NCAA steeple...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC7SpMxrmyU
...and to all the corrupt college coaches in this country who help make this happen.
Translated: I want my age group ribbon!
I completely agree. It's not fair, and there are other ways to beat the system. And I think the race card is getting so old. It's not racist to call out someone for age. While some individuals hit puberty earlier than others, some that attempt to pass as "young" are just insulting. And those that are older do have more of a benefit; their bodies can handle a tougher workload, they have more years and expirence. And it's not only Kenyans that I have seen do this. I knew friends in high school that were 20 or even 21. But because there parents "purposely" retained them so that they could shine. Or for example, sprinters from the Caribbean also falsify records for the same reason.
So is it a crime, yes. Everyone changes their age which should totally be addressed. Strippers, athletes, politicians and actors.
800 analyzer wrote:
Shawn H wrote:Thanks, 800.
Just because I agree with you doesn't mean you get to address me informally. Please use my entire name when addressing me. Thank you.
No disrespect, but that's pretty damn funny. "Use my entire name . . . " (800 analyzer). How many people on this post even use part of their real names? I do. LOL.
If someone is using your nickname falsely, 800, and so many people are obviously using multiple names from the same IP address, then this forum needs better mod control.
The rock cried out wrote:
Barnabas Kirui of Mississippi ran in the 2005 World University Games for a Kenyan University (Izmir)
http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/kenya/barnabas-kirui-211510#progressionThen enrolled at Mississippi as a true freshman in late 2006 and competed for five years. Seems like he won lots of titles that should have been won by legitimate College athletes. No one gets hurt? Tell that to Andrew Lemoncello and Aaron Aguayo at the NCAA steeple...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC7SpMxrmyU...and to all the corrupt college coaches in this country who help make this happen.
Sub-university students can compete at the Universiade.
trackcoach wrote:
Actually it was world youth, not juniors. This kid was listed as 16 years old and his opening 400m was clocked at 48.6 and he hung on to win. Some of the kids who hung way off the pace came back on him, but he still hung on for the win. This is the same man who ran the anchor leg on Kenya's 4x8 at the world Relays Championship this year. Does anyone really think Kenya would put a 17 year old on their World Relays anchor leg in a global championship with $50,000 dollars on the line. I have looked at a clear picture of him and he looks to be in his mid-20s. Also, I am about 95% sure this is the same man who ran the open 400m for Kenya in the 2012 World Juniors in Barcelona, but under a different name and age. He was probably in his early 20s back in 2012, he is probably about 24-25 right now and I would not be surprised to see him run World Juniors again this year. - See video below:
His resume:
2012 World Juniors
2013 World Youth
2014 World Relays
2014 World Juniors
How can anyone think this is fair and btw, I have many similar examples of age cheating.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W46lXS32wmo
Got a name?
Buffaloes wrote:
PUOSU wrote:Can you give us some examples of 25-year-olds illegally taking a spot from a teenager? Thanks in advance.
um, ever heard of LV and grampa ches?
Cheserk does not fit any of the characteristics of someone back dating their age, most likely he is the age that's documented or perhaps a year older. Ches lived in a U.S. run orphanage, ran grade school track, ran age group track, never competed in youth or junior competition...none of which are the hallmarks of an age cheat. Also, the age cheating I'm talking about is ultimately to get signed by an agent and Ches is pursuing an education.
I don't get too upset about the age issue. I also don't get too excited about fast junior times from East Africa either. Often the athlete does not get a lot better. Of course, some have great careers. Kipchoge has had a long career and did amazing things at 18-19, he many not have gained more than a few seconds on his PRs. I would not be shocked if he is now 31 instead of officially being 29. Same for Augustine Choge who ran great times at 18. Isiah Koech is having a great career. I think he ran a blistering 5000 when he was 17 and improved a bit in that fast race in Paris. Who knows, they may just develop earlier but even if they were 19 vs 17 or 18 when they ran those times, I would bet many could have beaten Rupp 13:37 mark for high school kids.
It is true that you need names for these accusations. The main name I would come up with is Joseph Nzau. It has been a while but, as I recall, he wanted credit for masters road records but was officially 38. He said he was given that age to run as a junior but always knew he was older.
I started a thread years ago when Paul Lonyangata of Kenya won a bronze in the 10k at World Juniors. There was obvious age cheating then too and it still happens. It's unfortunate for those that actually follow the rules. Here's the link to the thread from 2010. I agree with you 100% track coach. Something needs to be done!
So what do you think about the 14 years old Sydney McLaughlin who just did outstanding runs with great performance at the juniors trials last week? Is she older than she is? She broke a couple records that if she wasn't an American, she would have raised eye brows here. Just compare here times with the distance running times. I bet there is a chart out there that would show equivalent times in distance events. Just putting that out there.
Chet Manly wrote:
I can't believe that people are serious in thinking that there isn't widespread age cheating among the African runners. There's obviously a huge incentive for them to claim they are younger than they really are so of course people are going to do it. Would anyone really be shocked if every African was 2 years older (at the minimum) than they said they were?
Look at professional baseball - no one really has any clue on the birthdays of the non-American players. Pretty much everyone assumes that they are older than they claim but there is no good way to verify it so it's basically just ignored.
I agree with most of this, although it's hard to see what the incentive actually is. There's no money in winning a World junior or Youth medal, and once they're back in the big money races (Diamond League etc.) their age doesn't make any difference. You could argue that winning a global medal at age group level increases an athlete's profile and they may get into 1 or 2 extra races they wouldn't otherwise, but that would apply solely to the winner, and the benefits would be marginal at best.
I remember seeing a guy, Japhet Kimutai at World Juniors in '96. He'd won a silver or bronze 2 years previous in 1.47ish as a 16 year old. By '96 he was comfortably running 1.45 (which he did in the semi, before imploding in the final in a much slower race) and was, in terms of ability, streets ahead of every other competitor there. The following year he ran a WJR of mid 1.43 and then again the next year was down into the 1.42's. That, to me, seems a normal progression from 16 to 20/21 (albeit one of an exceptionally talented athlete).
There have been several others like him over the years (W.Chirchir and Bungei who came 1st & 2nd at World Juniors in '98 being good examples - both improved significantly on their times at Junior level) but it seems that in the last 5 years or so, whereas before there would be 3 or 4 Kenyan juniors running 1.45 each year, the level has increased significantly to the point we now seem to have a handful running sub 1.44 (or even sub 1.43) EVERY year! Furthermore, the majority don't seem to be improving on their times as they get older. This, more than the times themselves, is what's made me suspicious in recent years. Inevitably there will still be plenty of exceptional teenagers, however.
Read "Running with the Kenyans" by Adharanand Finn - he's got no axe to grind but was pretty clear that in the age group competitions a lot of the Kenyan's just choose which year they want to run in (e.g. "Maybe next year I will try the senior race") regardless of d.o.b. and the scrutiny is limited to a couple of Kenyan Athletics officials wandering up and down the lines and pulling out anyone they think is too obviously over-age.
That said... by all accounts most births post-2000 have been documented in hospitals with valid birth certificates by my understanding (which to be fair is from Canova's comments) and so this issue should disappear in the next 5-10 years without much comment.
Speaker wrote:
Read "Running with the Kenyans" by Adharanand Finn - he's got no axe to grind but was pretty clear that in the age group competitions a lot of the Kenyan's just choose which year they want to run in (e.g. "Maybe next year I will try the senior race") regardless of d.o.b. and the scrutiny is limited to a couple of Kenyan Athletics officials wandering up and down the lines and pulling out anyone they think is too obviously over-age.
That said... by all accounts most births post-2000 have been documented in hospitals with valid birth certificates by my understanding (which to be fair is from Canova's comments) and so this issue should disappear in the next 5-10 years without much comment.
I am also familiar with Kenyan age group competitions where the biggest drama is not the performances, but the fights that break out between coaches over the age of the athletes. Kenyan age group competitions are similar to the AAU and USATF Jr Olympics programs and in those competitions, athletes and coaches will go out of their way to validate an athletes age. Meets are often held up for hours as officials determine which age group certain kids will compete in. Athletes will show up to the meets with a letter from school teachers, parents and even village elders will get involved in verifying an athlete's age. The fact is, in-country, Kenyans take age cheating very seriously when it comes to grade school and youth competitions, but when it comes to competing abroad, there is a conspiracy of silence.
False.
Chet Manly wrote:
I can't believe that people are serious in thinking that there isn't widespread age cheating among the African runners. There's obviously a huge incentive for them to claim they are younger than they really are so of course people are going to do it. Would anyone really be shocked if every African was 2 years older (at the minimum) than they said they were?
Look at professional baseball - no one really has any clue on the birthdays of the non-American players. Pretty much everyone assumes that they are older than they claim but there is no good way to verify it so it's basically just ignored.
According to your logic and baseball analogy, all agents should know or do know that Kenyan ages are suspect and therefore they discount them or straight up ignore them. Therefore there is again no incentive to lie about your age if your kenyan because will believe it and you'll be judged solely based on your times, which happen to be world class....
It really seems like the only incentive Kenyan's have to lie about their ages is so that they can come and compete in America Universities and receive an American University education. Shame on them for wanting to better their lives.
Like the "the grapes are too sour guy said", this all translates to a bunch of whiny runners wanting their age-group ribbons. The harm is some joe schmoo was denied his NCAA Title because he couldn't hack it with the big boys.
BUrgess@221 wrote:
So what do you think about the 14 years old Sydney McLaughlin who just did outstanding runs with great performance at the juniors trials last week? Is she older than she is? She broke a couple records that if she wasn't an American, she would have raised eye brows here. Just compare here times with the distance running times. I bet there is a chart out there that would show equivalent times in distance events. Just putting that out there.
This is not a valid arguement becasue we actually know what age Sydney is. The issue isn't great performances, Kenya's Faith Kipyegon ran one of the fastest 1500m in history at age 19. She ran an incredible 3:56, take away the doped up Chinese and North Africans and Faith would probably be fastest miler in history. I have no reason to suspect Faith isn't the age she says she is in spite of her off-the-chart performances.
The problem I have is with situations where people know the athlete is over age and/or there is considerable suspicion that the athlete is overage. With in any decade, there will alway be phenoms like Usain Bolt, Zola Budd and Faith Kipyegon, etc. In the last 2 decades, there have been around 40 (I say again 40) sub-13 5K performances by East African juniors and some of their ages were lisited as young as 17. If you have that many 17-19 year olds running sub-13, I would expect the world record to sub-12 by now, but the fact is, most of those supposedly 17-19 year olds only made a slight improvement over their junior marks. I suspect the reason for this is that most of those athletes were alreay in their mid-20s. A few of them we know for a fact were overage when they competed as a junior.
The fact is, I don't think there is much of a discussion about African age cheating becasue there is no doubt that it takes place and not just in track and field, but in other sports as well. FIFA has dealth with the same issues and in fact, FIFA idenifed the worse offenders as the same countries I am talking about for track. FIFA solved the problems by doing an MRI scan to deterine the degree of bone fusion in the wrist at youth competitons. This is supposed to be close to 100% accurate for youth level athletes and little less accurate for juniors. If you are not going to do that, why not at least make it mandatory that each athlete's age be vaildated, if you can't prove your age, you can't compete.
you have done a "good" job of exposing the alleged cheaters, now do the mature and responsible thing and propose a solution.
trackcoach wrote:
Over the years I have written quite a bit about African age cheating at youth and junior global competitions and perhaps to some, it sounds like sour grapes. The East Africans are the best at the senior ranks, therefore why wouldn't they be the best the best at the junior ranks. That's a valid point, but as we have gotten better and closed the gap at the senior level, the gap hasn't changed much at the junior level. With out a doubt, the African juniors are very good and if they sent an age legit team to world jrs, they would still do extremely well. However, it would not look like a freak show as in a junior athlete going out in the 800m in 48 seconds, world (senior) record pace and still manage to win. There is perhaps only a hand full of senior athletes who could go out in 48 second and manage to stay on their feet.
Even though the U.S. is going through a renaissance, the last 14 years have pretty much rewritten the record books for H.S./Jr. middle and long distance performances, yet we still can't compete with the African juniors. Alan Webb the American H.S. record holder in the mile by a significant margin, had he competed in world jrs in 2001, he probably would not have won a medal. The same for German Fernandez in 2008 or Lukas Verzbicas in 2011. I remember the excitement in 2010 when college freshmen Robby Andrews and Casimir Loxsom represented the U.S. in the 800m at world jrs. Someone said, they will probably go 1-2 and I said, I'd be surprised if either one of them won a medal. I caught a flack for saying that. Btw, I was wrong, Loxsom did win a medal, but the Kenyan athlete who finished ahead of him looked to me like he was running just fast enough to win and a week later he was competing on the European circuit and running a second faster. Although age cheating is less pervasive among females, I said almost 2 months ago that America's greatest H.S. Middle distance runner, Mary Cain was not guaranteed a medal in any event. The Africans are well aware of Mary Cain and they will put forth whatever athlete is required to beat her and age won't matter one bit.
How bad is the situation? - 'very bad' I suspect it is rare that an African athlete is the correct age, I estimate that over 90% of the African athletes are over age. How much over age are they? - 'In some cases very old' Over the years I have been able estimate a couple of athletes being close to 30, with most of them in their mid-20s and very few legit 18 and 19 year olds. How is this possible? - 'It's easy' The IAAF leaves it up to nations to verify the age of its athletes and does not have the will to challenge the Track and Field NGOs. Even in cases as obvious as a Kenyan athlete in his second year at an American university, with an older brother running world jrs. Why no one does anything about it? - There are many people connected to this scam that benefit from it, some of them are the most respected people in track and field. Except for the athletes themselves, coaches and the sports NGOs, most of the people participate indirectly. All Kenyan athletes, including the Kenyan and ex-Kenyan athletes competing in the U.S. know about it, all of your top coaches and agents of African athletes, Simms, Flynn, Bro Colm O’Connell, Coach Renato Canova...basically any athlete from Kenya or anyone who works with Kenyan athletes participates 'indirectly' by at the very least pretending it does not exist. Why people connected to the problem rarely even speak about it? - 'conspiracy of silence' East African countries are very poor and a couple of good seasons on the European circuit can support an athlete and often their extended family for life and this is so important that there is an unwritten rule to not interfere with that and unfortunately, African athletes are subject to higher standard. A Kenyan running a 3:35 1500m needs 18 years old to get into the money races.
For the record, there are countries outside of Africa that age cheat as well, namely China, the DR and Cuba.
"In the last 2 decades, there have been around 40 (I say again 40) sub-13 5K performances by East African juniors and some of their ages were lisited as young as 17."
Here's the list of the 18 guys who have broken 13 for 5k as juniors. Which of these guys are you accusing of being age cheats and based on what evidence?
RANK MARK COMPETITOR DOB NAT POS VENUE DATE
1 12:47.53 Hagos GEBRHIWET 11 MAY 1994 Ethiopia ETH 2 Paris Saint-Denis 06 JUL 2012
2 12:48.64 Isiah Kiplangat KOECH 19 DEC 1993 Kenya KEN 3 Paris Saint-Denis 06 JUL 2012
3 12:52.61 Eliud KIPCHOGE 5 NOV 1984 Kenya KEN 3 Oslo 27 JUN 2003
4 12:53.66 Augustine Kiprono CHOGE 21 JAN 1987 Kenya KEN 4 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 08 JUL 2005
5 12:53.72 Philip MOSIMA 1 FEB 1977 Kenya KEN 2 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 05 JUN 1996
6 12:53.81 Tariku BEKELE 28 FEB 1987 Ethiopia ETH 4 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 14 JUL 2006
7 12:54.07 Sammy KIPKETER 29 SEP 1981 Kenya KEN 2 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 30 JUN 2000
8 12:54.19 Abreham CHERKOS 23 SEP 1989 Ethiopia ETH 5 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 14 JUL 2006
9 12:54.58 James Kwalia C'KURUI 12 JUN 1984 Qatar QAT 5 Oslo 27 JUN 2003
10 12:56.15 Daniel KOMEN 17 MAY 1976 Kenya KEN 2 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 08 JUN 1995
11 12:57.05 Mulugeta WENDIMU 28 FEB 1985 Ethiopia ETH 2 Berlin 12 SEP 2004
12 12:57.43 Josphat Bett KIPKOECH 12 JUN 1990 Kenya KEN 5 Bruxelles 04 SEP 2009
13 12:58.03 Joseph EBUYA 20 JUN 1987 Kenya KEN 6 Paris Saint-Denis 08 JUL 2006
14 12:58.08 Gebregziabher GEBREMARIAM 12 OCT 1984 Ethiopia ETH 6 Paris Saint-Denis (Stade de France) 31 AUG 2003
15 12:58.15 Richard LIMO 18 NOV 1980 Kenya KEN 6 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 07 JUL 1999
16 12:58.70 Lucas Kimeli ROTICH 16 APR 1990 Kenya KEN 4 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 10 JUL 2009
17 12:59.39 Million WOLDE 17 MAR 1979 Ethiopia ETH 5 Zürich 12 AUG 1998
18 12:59.90 Ahmad Hassan ABDULLAH 29 JUL 1981 Qatar QAT 8 Oslo (Bislett) 28 JUL 2000
RIP: D3 All-American Frank Csorba - who ran 13:56 in March - dead
RENATO can you talk about the preparation of Emile Cairess 2:06
Running for Bowerman Track Club used to be cool now its embarrassing
Hats off to my dad. He just ran a 1:42 Half Marathon and turns 75 in 2 months!
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year