Northport boys nearly get South Eugene's decades old 4xmile record

Northport is DQ'd. Their anchor runner stepped over the line (rail) at least three times at the 16:30 mark.

That was on the straightaway and is not usually judged to be a DQ, e.g. from NCAA Rule 5, Section 5, Article 3: "Note: The referee, after consulting with the appropriate officials, shall not disqualify a competitor who is pushed or forced by another runner to step on or over the curb without material advantage gained, or steps on or over the curb on the straightaway unless an advantage is gained by improving position."Heck, there was a girl at the same meet who passed on the fake grass by running WAY inside lane one to pass on the home straight.

Official DQ wrote:

Northport is DQ'd. Their anchor runner stepped over the line (rail) at least three times at the 16:30 mark.

Damien Sandow wrote:

I was not there, and I would hate to argue with John Gustafson, but a photo of the 1976 record appears to show a white stripe as the marker for the inside of lane 1, and a concrete border that appears to be at the same level as the track surface and is at least 4 inches further inside of the stripe. If I am interpreting the photo correctly, there is no curb.

See

http://runningentertainment.com/runningshots15.html

Scroll down to the penultimate strip of black-and-white photos and enlarge and inspect the 3rd photo (handoff to McChesney). You can also see the same situation in the 3rd & 5th photos in the last strip (1977 DMR HSR).

Forget the curb, forget the cones, South has the HSR, and Northport TC was dang close.

Gustafson wrote:

Craig, there was a curb on the track when South set the current 4xmile record.

I don't remember a rail, and that picture looks accurate.

I lived a few blocks from there and often ran over to run on the chopped rubber warm up / warm down lane.

That is what makes the record good. There have been teams where you add up the PRs and they smash the record. But getting 4 high schoolers to run with in a couple seconds of their PR in 1 race is a heck of a lot harder.

asu guy wrote:

It's nice to think this crew is close to the South crew, they are not.

The south record is so much softer then those guys were. if those guys had a race the record would be sub 17...

How many kids in the us have run sub 4:08 in high school and been the third best runner on their own team, John Gustafson ran 4:08.00 that year and he ran 4:18 in the record race.

Update: They have it with the FAT conversion.

No way no how does .92. Convert down to a .6 hand time

wizardstaff wrote:

Update: They have it with the FAT conversion.

Ouch, they decided to add time to South Eugene's record.

.24 should only be added for races,not starting and finishing in same place

This was a 4 x mile. The gun was not even far away

I think .24 is incorrectly applied

I am also unsure of why Eugene marks gets further rounded up

It could just as easily have been 17:06.55 actual. Posted as.6

webfoot wrote:

wizardstaff wrote:

Update: They have it with the FAT conversion.

Ouch, they decided to add time to South Eugene's record.

http://xcnation.runnerspace.com/gprofile.php?mgroup_id=45417&do=news&news_id=268464

XC Nation did. They don't matter.

nearly missed ... means they missed and they join the legions of others who don't have the record.

Trialswatcher wrote:

.24 should only be added for races,not starting and finishing in same place

This was a 4 x mile. The gun was not even far away

I think .24 is incorrectly applied

I am also unsure of why Eugene marks gets further rounded up

It could just as easily have been 17:06.55 actual. Posted as.6

What they did to South Eugene's time is a joke. They need to revisit this or lose credibility.

here is an excellent response I cut and pasted

Pretty much sums it up correctly

"Any decent official who knows the rules (and they can be NFHS, USATF, whatever, knows to round UP any hand time recorded in 100ths. If the South Eugene time had been 17:06.61 the time would have been rounded up to 17:06.7 meaning that the rounding is already done. South Eugene's time at 17:06.6 is the right time unless someone haas evidence that the officials who timed that race were incompetent or erred.

Second, while the NFHS can opine all it wants about conversions, most track statisticians add 0.14 seconds to adjust for hand timing for races of 1 lap or more and 0.24 for races of less than a lap. The reason is simple: the starter and timers for races of less than a lap are often 100 meters or more apart. So that would result in South Eugene's time being adjusted to 17:06.74. Read about this on the Track and Field website or in the Big Gold Book.

Lastly, the authority for high school track and field records is Jack Shepard's High School Annual, not the NFHS which only recognizes makes made in meets sanctioned by NFHS/one of their state associations. I haven't talked to Jack but I would bet he will carry Northport's time as the second best ever run. As he should."

Let me also add this. There is only ONE governing body for any high school sport in any state and that is the state's own association and by extension the NFHS which is really a body that exists because the state associations want it to. ONLY the state association in each state has been invested with the power to govern high school sports in that state. No one else.

The idea that NHSCA has any governance authority over any high school events is bogus; it has never been invested with any authority by any high schools that I know of. They have no more right to call a performance a record than anyone else on here does. Since the meet in question was NOT an NFHS event that body has and would take no responsibility for anything at the meet. Generally speaking most high school records are those that are accepted by the fans at large and I submit that most become accepted by inclusion in the High School Track and Field Annual. That publication has been around or a very long time and has applied a level of consistency and continuity to high school records, top 10s, etc. It the source that most fans recognize I think either directly or indirectly.

Common sense should tell you that Northport just missed the record.

South Eugene - 17:06.6 (100ths would have been round up already)

Adjustment for hand timing - 0.014

National Record for the 4 x mile - 17:06.74

Northport ran 17:06.92. They missed it by an eyelash, a great accomplishment unto itself that should not be embroiled in a self-made controversy by some guys who want to be important. Sorry but that's what it is.

EDIT: Sorry but a slight correction from Track and Field News' Big Gold Book: "For races longer than 1 lap statisticians generally recognize hand times at face value". They've been doing this track and field thing for a while and I think they have it nailed.

No worries, Paul, I would doubt that Jack would ever consider this a record because simply put, they just missed (I wish they had gotten it).

Bob Penny, 1978 South Eugene grad and member of South's 1977 DM HSNR team here.

I am currently writing a book about SE track history and have all the files from the past here in front of me.

Trailwatcher is right on the issue of adding time to South's record - also right in terms of what governing body has authority. We generally had three timers catching first with the result being the average - so pretty accurate.

I don't think we had a curb at South in those days, but I'll differ to John G (Goose) for the moment on that. It doesn't really matter anyway.

Someone in this thread said the #2,3,4 and 10 times were set this year. South Eugene ran 17:11.7 in 1975, which at the time broke the national record (previous record 17:12.2 by Essex Catholic with Marti Liquori anchor). The 1976 mark broke South's own record. TFN now only lists one mark per school on it's all-time top ten list so that is why this mark has disappeared. This was the same South foursome except Steve McChesney was on the '75 relay and Dirk Lakeman was on the '76 relay.

It should be noted that the relay records were achieved at our own Axemen Relay's invitational, a home-grown but high quality relay meet that gathered in competitors from all over Oregon. Still, we had little to no competition for these record attempts. Also, the meets were generally the first weekend of May, so not quite at season peak form. And in every case it should be noted that the runners doubled back later to run other races in the same meet. For instance, in 1976 Bill McChesney ran a 4:11.8 split for the record relay at 4:05pm and doubled back for a 14:15.2 3M at 5:55pm. John Gustafson ran a 4:18.2 split and then came back at 5:35pm and anchored a DM in 4:24.9. Dirk Lakemen ran 4:16.9 and doubled back in the DM for a 1:57.2. Chris Nielson ran a 4:19.7 split and doubled back at 4:55pm in the 2M relay in 2:00.4 (these are all yard distances. The info is from file records and meet programs - and I was there).

As for seasonal PR's vs. what was achieved in the relay here are the stats for South Eugene from 1976 (along with grade)-

John Gustafson 4:08.0 grade 12

Bill McChesney 4:10.6 11

Chris Nielsen 4:14.8 12

Dirk Lakeman 4:16.9 11

This ads up to a hypothetical 16:50.3. They were actually disappointed with the 17:06.6 time because they felt they could have broken 17 minutes.

Other seasonal PR's for South runners that season were -

Seth Brown 4:19.3 grade 12

Sean O'Conner 4:19.3 12

Scott Slovic 4:23.3 10

Jim Payne 4:28.2 11

me 4:29.8 10

South had 20 runners 5:01.1 or faster that season.

You refer to your "home grown high quality relay meet" but guys doubled back to run individual events? McChesney ran an open 3 mile? Not sure if I am getting this messed up. Was it an annual relay meet, but with individual events also? And how many times did you guys run the 4 X 1 mile back in the day? I believe this was Northports one & only crack at it in 2014. Perhaps they ran it back in 2013 also, but am not finding evidence of it.

xc nation is a joke wrote:

XC Nation did. They don't matter.

I'm coming the realization that "XC Nation" is some kid with a computer hosting his website through Runnerspace.

webfoot wrote:

xc nation is a joke wrote:

XC Nation did. They don't matter.

I'm coming the realization that "XC Nation" is some kid with a computer hosting his website through Runnerspace.

lol. It's not some kid, it's two brothers: Aron and David Taylor. You might have heard of them, and if so could then understand their "XC Nation". If not... search around.

Runnerspace's M.O. is to include all running related stuff it can get it's hands on. That's why XC Nation is allowed to be hosted on Runnerspace.

watchout wrote:

webfoot wrote:

I'm coming the realization that "XC Nation" is some kid with a computer hosting his website through Runnerspace.

lol. It's not some kid, it's two brothers: Aron and David Taylor. You might have heard of them, and if so could then understand their "XC Nation". If not... search around.

Runnerspace's M.O. is to include all running related stuff it can get it's hands on. That's why XC Nation is allowed to be hosted on Runnerspace.

Info about the founders. What is it about twin brothers crating running websites. :)

!__aboutus

They claim a partnership with National High School Coaches Association, but if you go to

there is nothing about XC Nation.

Like their passion but questionable judgment on this timing issue. Northport has a great story and these guys made an emotional decision that Northport deserves the record.

webfoot wrote:They claim a partnership with National High School Coaches Association, but if you go to

http://www.nhsca.com

there is nothing about XC Nation.

Ha, I was confusing nhsca with

.

This National High School Coaches Association is a bogus organization as far as I can tell.

Answer to kmaclam - The Axemen Relays was a pretty high quality invite for the day. I called it "home grown" because South Eugene hosted and ran the meet. But it was a significant competitive venue during the mid-spring for the best in Oregon. I'm imagining that when Harry Johnson created the meet he was thinking back to the days of the Hayward Relays, a high school meet put on at UofO for many years by Bill Hayward and Ray Hendrickson (principal of North Eugene HS and long time starter for Hayward Field meets)and how the importance of some of the relay events had lagged in the state since the demise of that meet. It was a smaller affair than the old Hayward Relays, and yes, it did include individual events. The meet programs were quite nice, with photos, and with meet, OR HS, and Nat. HS records presented for each event listing - a sort of suggestion that records were on the table at this meet. The program would even list the names of all members of the existing relay records. The slate of events for the 1976 edition of the meet was shot put, javelin, discus, 440 relay, 880 relay, mile relay, high hurdles (110 yrds), intermediate hurdles (330yrds), pole vault, high jump, long jump, triple jump, two mile relay, four mile relay, distance medley, and three mile. For other years the events differed. For instance, starting in 1979 the Axemen Relay's were held at Hayward Field, which allow the edition of a 3000 meter steeplechase. Some years the 4xmile or distance medley teams got to do a "warm up" run through of the event of couple weeks prior to Axemen Relays at the Willamette Relays at Willamette University in Salem, but we never tried to break national records there. Sometimes a state or school record effort would happen at Willamette, but that was an afterthought, just a product of getting the feel for doing the event. I believe Northpoint did a 4xmile just the previous weekend at NBN and improved by about 15 seconds at Brooks PR.