A lot of the hate for the NOP comes from the fact that they have access to and use expensive technologies that are not available to most U.S. elites. Do athletes and coaches throughout the rest of the sport share these sentiments, or do you think the hate is mainly concentrated in the US/LRC?
Any coach tries to use in the best way what he can use.
In Kenya, we have the advantage of a full training in winter, of hilly rough roads that can help to increase the right muscle strength, and of a general ambience where everybody knows the right phylosophy of running. For that reason, during winter, many of the best athletes of the world go in the area Iten - Eldoret - Kaptagat for training, not for stupid ideas as to skip antidoping controls (which there are in Kenya, too, also if there is here a general disinformation about this).
I respect the mentality of Alberto, who tries to find the best solution for his athletes, using what he can have. To be part of a strong organization always can help the development of athletes (if the coach is able to look at the best technical solutions for the athletes themselves, not if the coach look at the pure will of the organization...) in any discipline, and we need to quit to think that to have the opportunity to use advanced (and expensive) solutions is unfair.
Never is possible to give the same opportunities to everybody. This fact doesn't involve money only, but a lot of other components : to have a good coach or not, to live near good facilities or not, to have a good previous education or not, to have enough food or not (in many cases there are African runners eating only once per day, and when they go in a training camp their biggest improvement is because finally they hve food enough !), to have the possibility to focus in training or not (the case of athletes having family problems, for example).
We try to enhance the level of all this factors : not Always we are able to do, sometimes it's possible, sometimes not. But it's not possible to low the bar, moving from advanced proposals to amateurial activity, only because in this way everybody can have the same opportunity (without the same musts...).
This is an absolutely perfect response. You do what you can, with what you have and there are advantages and disadvantages to every situation. You capitalize on your advantages and strive the make the disadvantages better.
To elaborate on my beliefs, I feel having every advantage and every piece of advanced technology under the sun can often cloud what your are trying to do. Often times you lose sight of what you were doing prior to your success in the first place and can lose the fun or passion necessary for continued success and improvement.
hmm ok
but you did say ma's chinese army were clean renato
so maybe you're being diplomatic again
just sayin wrote:
hmm ok
but you did say ma's chinese army were clean renato
so maybe you're being diplomatic again
Regardless of whether he is being diplomatic or not, I think his logic is spot on. No athlete anywhere has the same advantages or disadvantages as any other.
You use what you have within the bounds of what is legal.
Great response Coach Canova.
Do you ever hear coaches, athletes or officials talk of legalizing PED use in professional running? Do you think that athletes will stop being tested in the future?
Holland Oates wrote:
Great response Coach Canova.
Do you ever hear coaches, athletes or officials talk of legalizing PED use in professional running? Do you think that athletes will stop being tested in the future?
I really can't imagine legalizing PED's and I certainly hope they don't. First, only the riskiest people would do it, meaning full on EPO, steroids etc. There would certainly be an increase in deaths or near deaths for track athletes because a lot of people would try it recklessly at the sub elite level.
On a philosophical level, it would be interesting to see it done for a couple years to see how the times / marks improve and where (globally) they are improving. But not worth the risk.
LM wrote:
just sayin wrote:hmm ok
but you did say ma's chinese army were clean renato
so maybe you're being diplomatic again
Regardless of whether he is being diplomatic or not, I think his logic is spot on. No athlete anywhere has the same advantages or disadvantages as any other.
You use what you have within the bounds of what is legal.
Are you implying that because athletes from a variety of backgrounds face a variety of challenges, that they are all on equal ground as it applies to training and competition? That's absolutely laughable.
RRRR wrote:
LM wrote:Regardless of whether he is being diplomatic or not, I think his logic is spot on. No athlete anywhere has the same advantages or disadvantages as any other.
You use what you have within the bounds of what is legal.
Are you implying that because athletes from a variety of backgrounds face a variety of challenges, that they are all on equal ground as it applies to training and competition? That's absolutely laughable.
I believe what he was saying is that life is not perfectly fair, and you don't simply lower the bar for everyone not at the bottom to make it fair. Also, I believe he's saying if you have an opportunity to go to Rome for free, get a massive pay raise, date the hottest girl at school or anything else that is legal and moral in your eyes, you don't simply say no because not everyone can have all of these at the same time as you.
RRRR wrote:
LM wrote:Regardless of whether he is being diplomatic or not, I think his logic is spot on. No athlete anywhere has the same advantages or disadvantages as any other.
You use what you have within the bounds of what is legal.
Are you implying that because athletes from a variety of backgrounds face a variety of challenges, that they are all on equal ground as it applies to training and competition? That's absolutely laughable.
No, I'm saying exactly the opposite. Depending on where you come from, who you get to train for, etc. you have athletes that are more or less advantaged than others. That's just life, and part of why I don't feel Salazar's stuff offers an unfair advantage.
Renato, why would you say that Western European distance runners have struggled so much in the past 20 years?
idealist at work wrote:
RRRR wrote:Are you implying that because athletes from a variety of backgrounds face a variety of challenges, that they are all on equal ground as it applies to training and competition? That's absolutely laughable.
I believe what he was saying is that life is not perfectly fair, and you don't simply lower the bar for everyone not at the bottom to make it fair. Also, I believe he's saying if you have an opportunity to go to Rome for free, get a massive pay raise, date the hottest girl at school or anything else that is legal and moral in your eyes, you don't simply say no because not everyone can have all of these at the same time as you.
Pretty much this.
If something is deemed to be truly unfair then it ought to be banned and made illegal. People in Oklahoma don't get hills or altitude to train at. Kenyans don't get AlterG treadmills, and sometimes don't even get enough to eat. People in Colorado generally can't do speedwork at low elevations. Some people can't have a coach.
All of that is just a part of athletics. If you don't accept that, you basically have to spell out exactly what is, and isn't allowed in training. Why would it be any more unfair for Rupp to train on an alterG and have a dedicated physiotherapist than it would be for someone in Mammoth be easily able to live high and train low? I honestly have no idea how you could even begin to quantify it if you wanted to make training "equal" for everyone.
I don't use to be diplomatic. I Always use to say exactly what I think (otherwise I don't answer to any question).
I never said Chinese 1993 were clean or not. I explained the reasons at the base of their explosion, and the reasons were essentially an incredible motivation, with the dream to become important persons in the history of China (not only in the sport), being the main "motor" for having Olympic Games in 2000. Their training was unbelievable, we speak about 280 km per week with inside a lot of intensity. Everybody thinks that, without doping, it was not possible to sustain that trend. May be yes, may be not, but there are no prooves about this.
Some idiot supposes the track was short : but the 3rd chinese athlete in 10000m was lapped and ran slower than 31'. may be there were two different tracks, one for Wang Junxia and another for the other competitors...
You continue to look at doping in obsessive way, because this is what you think, and this is what you think because the general idea is that without dping is not possible running so fast. Instead, I know it's possible, if an athlete as Shaheen ALWAYS REFUSED TO GET ANY SUPPLEMENT (also legal), and is still the WR holder.
People not having any direct relation with the best runners in the world, can't have the exact perception of the current human limits "clean".
The big improvement of American runners is due to a change of mentality : instead crying that all African are doped, finally started to train with more professionalism, intensity and volume. This didn't happen, still, for Marathon, where american training is very fasr from the methodology of the best african runners.
Mentality, not doping, is at the base of everything.
Now I have to face this problem in China, where athletes (for the system existing in the Country, based on the activity in the Provinces, not interested in international activity, but with the onky interest to finalize everything to National Games every 4 years only) are not motivated to try to improve their personal bests. Last week there was a big meeting in Kunshan, with athletes from every Province, and the times of the winners were 2:09.40 in 800m (85 runners), 4:23 in 1500m (79 runners), 16:41 in 5000m (59 runners), 34:04 in 10000m (42 runners), 10:03 in steeple (only 10 runners), and I don't want to speak about men.
Do you think that a Country with 1,300 millions of people can produce results like these ? And this is the same Country of the WR holders in 1993.
And, at that level, it's not a problem of knowledge of training, it's only a problem of AMBIENCE, INTEREST and MOTIVATION. All situations that are at the top level in Africa (Kenya and Ethiopia), also if there is still possible to improve very much under methodological point of view.
About another question, no, I don't think the doping control has to quit. I think they need to be implemented. But I refuse the position of the "salesmen" of antidoping, speaking for creating a negative image about doping everywhere, also if it's not true.
This is exactly what happens in Kenya. Yes, there is doping, because some doctor / pharmacist (nothing to do with the world of athletics) looks at athletes of medium level for giving illegal supplements in change of 15% of their income, the same percentage due to a manager. The most part of these athletes don't have any manager, many of them don't have education, many are cheated, and the cheaters (who are Kenyan, not foreigner managers or coaches) continue their action without any sanction.
Bit this doesn't regard all the best runners, because their managements are professional and able to teach them what they can do and what is illegal. On my side, in order to avoid any problem (when an athlete is on the border between what is legal and what is not legal, see US and Jamaican sprinters, it's easy to go in the wrong side, also without wanting), I tell to my athletes NOT TO GET ANYTHING, apart maltodextrines during long and fast run.
And, in this way, I have some WR holder and continue to develop athletes at top level, completely clean.
Believe me, mentality and motivation are the winning factors in middle and long distances, not doping.
A good coach "is the doping" for his athletes, when is able to make in their mind normal what before was difficult, and possible what before was impossible. Human limits are very much more far than the current records, for clean talents, in every part of the world.
Thank you for taking the time to post on here. Every post is very informative.
Renato, do you think that the young kids in China are more oriented (in high school system) to Gymnastics, table tennis and swimming, in detriment to distance running? In how many years they can solve this problem? (if it is a problem)
A good coach "is the doping" for his athletes, when is able to make in their mind normal what before was difficult, and possible what before was impossible. Human limits are very much more far than the current records, for clean talents, in every part of the world.
Quote of the year
Here's the multivariate model:
running success = f(volume + talent pool + physiology/weight + economic incentive + coaching/guidance). Looking at the history of long-distance success from Nurmi to Zatopek to Shorter to the Africans today suggests that coaching explains a very small amount of the variance in running success. Many of the best runners have been self-coached, in effect. Talent pool obviously depends on the extent to which other sports siphon off athletes. I discount the usual variables such as growing up at altitude and running to school on dirt roads. Physiology/weight possibly has a strong dietary component, which itself may be a proxy for level of development. In plain English, runners from developing countries may have healthier diets and weigh less. The western diet is not conducive to distance running. I strongly believe that the next frontier in training theory involves food theory. Economic incentive varies inversely with level of development. Globalization may reduce African dominance in distance running, but I'm not holding my breath.
idealist at work wrote:
I believe what he was saying is that life is not perfectly fair, and you don't simply lower the bar for everyone not at the bottom to make it fair. Also, I believe he's saying if you have an opportunity to go to Rome for free, get a massive pay raise, date the hottest girl at school or anything else that is legal and moral in your eyes, you don't simply say no because not everyone can have all of these at the same time as you.
Wish that everyone in our country thought that way. Affirmative action would go away.
Howza bout it wrote:
idealist at work wrote:I believe what he was saying is that life is not perfectly fair, and you don't simply lower the bar for everyone not at the bottom to make it fair. Also, I believe he's saying if you have an opportunity to go to Rome for free, get a massive pay raise, date the hottest girl at school or anything else that is legal and moral in your eyes, you don't simply say no because not everyone can have all of these at the same time as you.
Wish that everyone in our country thought that way. Affirmative action would go away.
I'm not sure if you are being sincere or sarcastic, but life is just not fair. That doesn't mean we can't make a lot of things relatively fair. We hope that the calls in a soccer game are fair to both teams. But we don't need to take away a great coach from say Spain, so they can't be as good as they can be against Ireland.
Look, I want as much as the average joe, and I want people to generally be happy and have good lives. But this overreaction that everything, everywhere at all times should (or more to the point CAN) be equally fair is rubbish. The world evolves by the best being the best. If we try to hold the best back we slow progress and the forces of nature and it will eventually backfire.
That's just my philosophy.
Well said Canova.
Your toughest job with Chinese athletes will be to globalize them with the desire to understand world competition levels. You know what you have to do , it won't be long until one of them breaks through , others believe and follow.