video from david epstein re athletic improvement

Otis Davis and Karl Kaufmann ran 44.9 at the 1960 Olympics... 44.9/1.015 = 44.23, good for silver and bronze in 2012. Even if you add on .14 or whatever it is from hand time to FAT. And they had 4 rounds, not 3.

Jim Ryun -

3'51.1 / 1.015 = 3'47.68

Drafting is worth 1s/lap & Jim had zero drafting

3'47.68 - 3s = 3'44.68

Jim also ran a massive negative split on the last lap. A more even pace would take further time off.

Additionally, Jim ran this race at the national championship and had actually run a qualifying heat the previous day. Had he been fresh, as is normal for record attempts today, he would have run even faster.

I don't know how to quantify those last two points, but I'd say he would have beaten El G at both of their respective primes. Jim was the most naturally gifted middle distance runner ever.

interesting stuff wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COaMKbNrX0

good one for our friend ventolin to comment on - cinders tracks 1.5% slower??

it would be interesting to see a modern day jesse owens compete against bolt

at least a sensible number to start with

bear in mind, the assumption has to be this is on a pristine dirt track at start of meet

by the big races happening towards end of meet, that track is going to get pretty badly chewed up, especially the lane 1 which has seen most of the "action"

there is quite shocking photo of the track in Ryun's 1500wr - i'll try & find it

i've seen a better quality pic somewhere else but this at least shows state of lane 1 into a meet

compare it to lesser used lane 2

you'd have to say that 1.5% figure is an under-estimate for lane 1

i do agree that a %age is better than using a fixed figure like 1s/lap as 800 guys go at different speeds compared to 10k ones

i'd say 1.5% looks a good number for 1st race on a pristine dirt track but has to be increased for subsequent races ( distance races primarily where lane 1 gets a progressive beating )

even for 1st race on a pristine dirt track, the 1.5% disadvantage is not going to be the same for an 800 v 10k race

the faster you run, the more friction you are going to generate between foot & dirt & you are also displacing more dirt imparting more kinetic energy to it as well - kinetic energy coming from runner's finite energy pool

so for shorter races the 1.5% which has to have a range, is going to be high end of range, for argument's sake, call it 1.75 - 1.25% range

this is not an exact science, but shorter races woud possibly suffer more, but then again, track gets chewed up more during course of a 10k than a 800 ( 25 laps of chewing up v 2 laps )

very quick times mj likely on the juice too so likely not far from the best ever

HardLoper wrote:

Otis Davis and Karl Kaufmann ran 44.9 at the 1960 Olympics... 44.9/1.015 = 44.23, good for silver and bronze in 2012. Even if you add on .14 or whatever it is from hand time to FAT. And they had 4 rounds, not 3.

reader of the forums wrote:

Jim Ryun -

we can also use this 1.5% figure ( still an under-estimate imo ) to at least put down some numbers for his 2 big 1500s in '67

1) the 3.33.1wr with a 46.5 jog to 300 & a 2'46.6 finish ->

3'29.9+ ! off 45.8+ / 2'44.1+ !!

that last 1200 is significant

( & run at uneven pace - his 2'46.6 had laps of ~ 56/58/53!!! ) :

fastest ever 1200 ( starting or finish ) in a fast 1500 was hicham's 2'44.75 in his 3'26.96 in rieti '02 when he wanted a 3'24+ clocking but no pacing after 1k

in his 3'26.00wr his initial 1200 was 2'46.34

2) is dusseldorf 3'38.2 with last lap of 50.5 & last 300 of 36.5

( he started his real kick 300 out & was pushed out wide from 400 - 300 by bodo according to guy who claims to have bought dvd ) ->

3'34.9+

with last lap including wide 1st bend running of

49.7+ !!

& last 300 of

35.9+ !!!

these numbers are surreal but those are hard numbers using the splits known & 1.5% difference

many used to claim historically this was greatest kick in a fastish tactical 1500

a 3'34.45

( which Ryun's time wouda likely been around if he hadn't been pushed out wide on penultimate bend )

with a 54.2 finish but last 300 of 39.4

it's not even in the same county as the ballpark of Ryun's run

Ryun wouda taken out best part of 30m on ovett on last lap & nearly all of it in last 300 !!!

vent

but ovett didn't start running hard until 200 out. he practically jogged the back straight and eased up down the front straight.

i rate ovett very highly, but think ryun the best ever all athletes at their best in a one off race

can you rate your top ten milers of all time

go to 1.38

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kraiMbRQtFc

shows just how slow cinder must have been

interesting stuff wrote:vent

but ovett didn't start running hard until 200 out. he practically jogged the back straight and eased up down the front straight.

yes, i did do ovett a slight mis-service

however, they were all speeding up 200 - 300 out so not really jogging, but his kick around the bend broke them

he had to ease the stretch as he'd pretty much given his all on that bend

that arm waving was a lot of kidology - he was hurting & not much left

i rate ovett very highly, but think ryun the best ever all athletes at their best in a one off race

can you rate your top ten milers of all time

we've done this many times

quite clearly in a fast paced ( or slow ) race, i'd rate Ryun a quantum leap above hicham, then bernie/noah

keino is tough to decide on :

he either rates with bernie/noah or in gap between them & morceli/asbel lower

on balance, his mexico run comes out at = ~ 3'27 sea-level ( tim noakes in his book has him at 3'25 !!! ), without evenning out the laps, so i'd place him at same level as bernie/noah

keino did beat Ryun by 3s in mexico & even Ryun a shadow of his '67 shape with mononucleosis & after-effects of a hamstring injury shouda been good for at least 3'30 in that shape at sea-level in a euro-circuit TT in his mexico form

3s better than a 3'30 guy in fast race ?

you do the maths for keino

i'd put morceli/asbel at similar level ( asbel got some ridiculous pacing at open of his 3'27.7 & no great drafting in parts - probably 3'26-high in a perfect race )

i'd put aouita just behind those 2 :

he ran 3'29.7 with a lot of extra distance run wide on bends & a ridiculous 52.8 finish

that was more a 3'27+ run if run route-1 on kerb & even-pace( i believe aouita/morceli were ~ just as good at 1500 - 5k, but aouita better at 800 )

that's my top-8

i'm going to cause controversy, but i will put mo next :

his 3'28.8 had too quick a start & drafting was poor

he shouda gone 3'28-low that day if the race had been specifically set up for him & not asbel

i'd put cram at 10 on basis of his mile wr which looked 3'28-low form

my top-10

1) Ryun

2) hicham

3) - 5) keino/bernie/noah

6) - 7) morceli/asbel

8) aouita

9) mo

10) cram

interesting stuff wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COaMKbNrX0

Even after following athletics, and especially distance running for many years, it's sort of surprising to hear that 17 Americans have broken 2:10 for the Marathon IN HISTORY, and 32 Kenyans from the Kalenyin tribe have broken that barrier IN LAST OCTOBER.

said88 wrote:

interesting stuff wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COaMKbNrX0

Even after following athletics, and especially distance running for many years, it's sort of surprising to hear that 17 Americans have broken 2:10 for the Marathon IN HISTORY, and 32 Kenyans from the Kalenyin tribe have broken that barrier IN LAST OCTOBER.

Just found this video on Ted randomly this morning. Great video, but yeah, that really puts things into perspective. (not that I didn't know kenyans were that good but still...)

Not much to be found here, just Ventolin talking to Ventolin mark 2 and Ventolin mark 3. He is posting under at least 3 different names on here. It's so obvious it's actually cringeworthy.

Generally a lot of hypothetical mental masturbation. Whatever turns you on I guess.