The Single Reason Ryan Hall Had a (Very) Bad Race Today: Emaciation

Where's all the love for Desisa? Jason H ran 2:25. Sometimes people have bad races.

jamin wrote:

X_Fit_Guy_The_Real_1 has been right all along about training and performance. If you become skinny-fat from eating too many grains and not running at a high enough intensity, that will hurt your performance on race day. You can see in this video that, leading up to the Boston Marathon, Ryan Hall had become skinny-fat and was eating grains:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZGlH_paK9Y

. Go to 5:14 and you see him slurping down spaghetti.

He's not the only runner who has suffered. Another notable example is Alan Webb. Here's Alan Webb back when he was fast:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2012/olympics/2012/writers/tim_layden/06/22/alan-webb-dathan-ritzenhein-2012-olympic-track-and-field-trials/alan-webb.jpg

. Compare that to the picture I took of him this January:

http://i.imgur.com/NVgu8SZ.jpg

. His arms looked weak and his stomach looked pudgy.

His gluten intolerance explains everything. Thanks for the video, Jamin.

naw, dude just has to find his mojo. Could be he will.

There is no such thing as junk mileage. All miles build fitness. People vary in how many miles they need, but most of the miles they run need to be comfortable so that they can run a lot of them. As for the theme of this discussion, it is impossible to tell from the outside whether a person is too thin. The appearance of thinness is an indicator of fitness, that one has been working hard. Hall went out at a pace that was not sustainable for him. That is why he slowed. I want to believe the story about how he slowed down the chase pack. This was a thrilling race because it wasn't rabbited.

+1000

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Yeah, I've noticed those skinny Kenyan's struggling as well

probably the reason Farah 'bombed', too. he needs to go back to being that fatty who ran 3:28 and won 2X WC gold last summer!

coming at you bro wrote:

His gluten intolerance explains everything. Thanks for the video, Jamin.

Except for the fact that he's been running crappily ever since he swore off gluten, and had run fantastic back when he was stuffing his face with wheat pasta, bread, etc.

So yes, other than those small facts, yes, "His gluten intolerance explains" all of his recent bad running.

Even though on its face, the title of this thread seems ridiculous, I think there might be some truth to it. I can't speculate as to whether Ryan really is underweight, but if he did say that he has worked back down to high school weight, that shows he has put some effort into doing so. And analyzing his body composition versus Meb's doesn't mean anything. They're different people. You'd be better off comparing 2014 Hall to 2011 Hall.

My experience is that there are times in your running career where the PRs seem to come easily. Many people experience this in their early to mid twenties. One doesn't focus on their diet, or religiously adhere to crazily tough ancillary training (core/plyo/weights/prehab), yet they still feel good on a regular basis, and the performances are consistently strong. It becomes a positive cycle, where you have confidence, and you don't expend any extra energy stressing about your running. People like Chris Lukezic and Alan Webb come to mind. I think they have both spoken about this.

As you approach your late twenties, your performances have leveled off. You attempt to double down on the little things. You worry about being 1.5 pounds overweight. You stress about individual workouts being 2/seconds a mile slower than when you hit your PR. You stop eating junk food, stop having any fun on the weekends (ie, drinking even moderately, staying up past 10 PM, etc), triple the length of your core routine. If you're Ryan Hall, you stop eating gluten. You constantly talk about stuff like Muscle Milk pancakes or beet roots (who the eff cares?). You decide to completely overhaul your training to try something different. You switch coaches repeatedly. Etc.

You can see how, despite training extremely hard, a negative mental cycle has begun. It can be really hard to break this. I think that Hall tries to compensate for this by being very publicly positive about things. He often describes how well his training is going. But the person he is really trying to convince is himself. Maybe he's not capable of truly relaxing and letting the times come to him. Or maybe he's just a little past his prime. I hope not, but maybe.

Also, the thyroid thing is garbage. Anyone running high mileage could get a prescription for thyroid medication. That is a fact. I've seen it firsthand. That doesn't mean you have a problem. Although you might have a problem after you've been on thyroid meds for a year or two, then you quit...

I 100% agree that hall has cut a little too much weight. Looking at the pics from Boston and comparing to what he looked like during the 08 trials he looks much thinner. Hall was cut during the 08 trials but he also had more muscle and strength. Now he still looks cut and is thinner but has lost a lot of his muscle and strength.

Perhaps his thyroid medication wasn't titrated properly as some have suggested and his body is using up to much energy.

I hope he goes back to some track 10ks.

I knew Ryan Hall was done after watching this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3du4D8I3W0Q

Once you start listening to a triathlon coach, it's all dowhill from there.

Most all of you are ignorant, but i say that in the kindest way.

The reason why he sucked donkey balls in Boston is simple. He was injured Oct->Dec and in the words of his agent Ray Flynn: "He really hasn’t had prolonged training in a long time". He's also had very few races in the last 2 years, TWO YEARS! Rusty as hell. The fact that he said he was in great shape is his typical delusional god-will-take-care-of-me attitude. If his contract with Nissan is coming up for renewal, won't be surprised if they drop him, and won't be surprised if he says it was god's plan and the best thing that has happened to him.

For some crazy reason i still like him, like a child who keeps shooting himself in the foot, but stays positive and keeps trying.

MIC ITW wrote:

6'0" 142lbs according to this old letsrun HS interview.

http://www.letsrun.com/highschool/hall.html

Most online sources, but not Ryan directly, now say he's 5'10" 130lbs

I think you found the problem. Hall has SHRUNK TWO INCHES. This is not normal. Something is seriously wrong with the poor lad. At this rate he will be Leo's height before his career is done.

MIC ITW wrote:If he is actually 6'0" 142lbs, that should be enough mass to support 2:07:40 or thereabouts. Running 10:00 slower than what your muscle mass can support is not an emaciation problem, that's a training problem. That's assuming he's 6'0" 142lbs, which is questionable, of course.

I love it, I really do. You've figured out down to the second (or thereabouts) what Hall's "muscle mass" "can support." This is awesome. Please tell me you are not writing this with a straight face. as if you have seen his exact lean tissue poundage, and as if you could predict ANYthing off of it even if you did.

Bravo.

Word

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Yeah, I've noticed those skinny Kenyan's struggling as well

there is a difference between skinny and skinnyfat.

too many American runners are skinnyfat

Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:

I love it, I really do. You've figured out down to the second (or thereabouts) what Hall's "muscle mass" "can support." This is awesome. Please tell me you are not writing this with a straight face. as if you have seen his exact lean tissue poundage, and as if you could predict ANYthing off of it even if you did.

Bravo.

Yeah, straight face. I'm used to the "you're crazy" spiel when it comes to numbers; been hearing that for about 20 years.

Clearly I don't know his exact weight, but it's safe to say he's within a percent or two of being as lean as he can and not completely fall off the cliff into the pit of constant sickness.

It takes X amount of lean mass to run Y speed. That isn't so hard to accept is it? Or maybe it is, but consider the extreme example (so it's easier to see) that someone that is 5'10" 90 pounds would clearly not have the requisite basic speed to run a 2:05 marathon, right? Well, at some point there IS enough lean mass to support certain speeds.

Another example, how many 5'10" 130 pound guys do you see breaking 20.00 in the 200? It doesn't happen. Why? Not enough lean mass to generate the force required to run that speed. Now ask yourself, what is the minimum 200 meter speed to run, say, a 2:05:30 marathon? My assertion is that a 2:05:30 marathon (wind-legal) guy is going to have about 23.00 200 meter speed within a few months of focusing on speedwork and getting away from strict marathon training. At 5'10" it will typically take a minimum weight of at least 136-137 pounds (at about 5% bodyfat) to run that.

So, there you have it, :|

jamin wrote:

X_Fit_Guy_The_Real_1 has been right all along about training and performance. If you become skinny-fat from eating too many grains and not running at a high enough intensity, that will hurt your performance on race day. You can see in this video that, leading up to the Boston Marathon, Ryan Hall had become skinny-fat and was eating grains:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZGlH_paK9Y

. Go to 5:14 and you see him slurping down spaghetti.

He's not the only runner who has suffered. Another notable example is Alan Webb. Here's Alan Webb back when he was fast:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2012/olympics/2012/writers/tim_layden/06/22/alan-webb-dathan-ritzenhein-2012-olympic-track-and-field-trials/alan-webb.jpg

. Compare that to the picture I took of him this January:

http://i.imgur.com/NVgu8SZ.jpg

. His arms looked weak and his stomach looked pudgy.

Here is the last picture I saw of Webb. Dude is as lean and ripped as ever:

Geoffrey Mutai 5'7" 119 lbs

Wilson Kipsang 6'0" 137 lbs

Patrick Makau 5'7" 121 lbs

Paul Tergat 6'0" 137 lbs

It seems like these guys are all leaner than your formula predicts. You could continue on with this list. And if your formula were to hold true, a 2:04:00 guy would need to run even faster over 200 meters, and would thus require more mass to do so.

The idea that if Hall were 6'0" and 142, his muscle mass would only support ~2:07:40...that's simply not provably true. With all due respect, I think you're getting too wrapped up in your numbers.

Wow, now I've heard it all.

A bad race, period. If he ran what he ran in training, then what happened? A bad race. Perfect weather, but still a bad race...it happens.

Of course he could have run faster, but what's the difference between him running 2:14 and 2:17 (the answer is not 3 minutes).

His weight? His height? If his aided 2:04:58 were a 2:06:30, or whatever it translates to, then how do you explain that?

It didn't happen for the guy, period. The marathon is not 100 meters. The odds of someone running the same pace race after race without having an issue is not the norm. If the pace were THAT easy, what TRULY happened to all of the Africans? Irrelevant of the pace being what it was for the pack, they did not all have a great day either.

Ryan Hall is far from finished and far from popping a really good one that only a few Americans can dream of as they don't have the ability. 2:06:17 in London, who's done that?

Over analysis can lead to paralysis, and sometimes moronic statements. Now the know-it-alls can set me straight, oh I can't wait to be schooled by all of the 2:12 marathoners on this site...oh wait:)

Let me WEIGH in (pun intended).

Yes, Ryan Hall is ridiculously SCRAWNY but so is Meb Keflezki and the other Kenyans.

I said it before, you might as well give the medal to the SKINNIEST guy before the race.

Marathon running has become a joke. A bunch of weak men with eating disorders trying to "battle" it out. Just sad. Pathetic.