coach comments nicely wrote:
How about you geniuses post scientific studies supporting your facts? We've posted plenty of research pointing to our argument.
You really need someone to post a study that says carbs provide more energy than fats? This is very fundamental level knowledge. I shouldn't have to find scientific studies.
Steve Magness has written about this-
http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/when-damage-good-thing?page=single
My two cents- it's a gamble. I'd rather have the quality workouts than crashing and burning on purpose.
Before I started to carbo-load, I used to deplete myself of carbs. I can't remember the specifics - JK if you are reading please post on here under your real name - but basically my last workout the week of the race would be done with no carbs.
I'd not take carbs for like 24 hours or something? 36? Can't remember how long. Then run this workout in the morning and immediately start to carboload.
I hated it. I remember vowing not to do it in the future.
Why? Because psychologically it destroyed me. The race was days away and the workout was like 3 mile tempo. I don't remember the specifics but like 3 miles at race pace felt impossible.
I'm not sure if Solinsky is talking about doing this right before the race or way out. I definitely don't recommend it right before the race - at least not your first marathon.
isjsj wrote:
coach comments nicely wrote:How about you geniuses post scientific studies supporting your facts? We've posted plenty of research pointing to our argument.
You really need someone to post a study that says carbs provide more energy than fats? This is very fundamental level knowledge. I shouldn't have to find scientific studies.
No you nitwit, find studies stating:
1) Depletion runs are not good for marathon prepping.
2) Being full of CHO/replenishing during your long runs is more beneficial for the marathon prep than a depletion run.
Obviously, carbs are the primary energy source of the body. Though aerobic metabolism prefers to use fat for fuel as it does produce more ATP.
Hey everyone, thanks for the chiming in to the thread. Some interesting stuff being talked about and I've appreciated the discussion that's been taking place.
The point I was trying to make was that if you have adequately prepared for a marathon and are refueling during the race, the issue Solinsky is talking about should not be a factor. Frankly, it sounds like a recommendation from someone who is inexperienced and doesn't know what the last miles of a marathon should feel like if had they adequately trained and fueled. I've enjoyed reading glycogen vs. fat burning and all that jazz and understand what would lead someone to the "depletion run" idea, but what I have a problem is specifically with this method - you intentionally put the body in a compromised and broken-down state, then push it. How is this a good idea? Why would you risking injury/long term fatigue/burn out when, if properly prepared and fueled, this shouldn't even be the problem. Purely anecdotal, but from what I've experienced form training and marathoning, the discomfort you go through during the last miles of a marathon aren't like what Chris is trying to prepare for. Just my two cents and again, I appreciate the discussion and sincerely wish him the best of luck in his upcoming marathon!
coach comments nicely wrote:
isjsj wrote:You really need someone to post a study that says carbs provide more energy than fats? This is very fundamental level knowledge. I shouldn't have to find scientific studies.
No you nitwit, find studies stating:
1) Depletion runs are not good for marathon prepping.
2) Being full of CHO/replenishing during your long runs is more beneficial for the marathon prep than a depletion run.
Obviously, carbs are the primary energy source of the body. Though aerobic metabolism prefers to use fat for fuel as it does produce more ATP.
How am I the nitwit here? You're the one that can't even read. I never said that depletion runs were not good for marathon prepping. That was never my argument.
Why do you need studies to prove number 2? You're not running out of fat during a marathon. You're running out of carbs. Fat will never provide the same energy as carbs so it's obvious that carbs should be replaced. What isn't clear about that? It's basic math.
Also, aerobic metabolism does not "prefer" to use fat for that reason. It does not even prefer anything at all. It chooses a fuel based on the circumstances.
Aerobic Glycolysis- the breaking down of glucose- produces 36/37 ATP.
Fat metabolism-the break down of triglycerides- will produce 460 ATP.
You're right! You are not running out of fat, you are running out of carbs. So shouldn't you train yourself to run mainly on lipolysis to be more efficient?
Train your body to be more efficient at lipolysis, by training in a carb depleted state.
coach comments nicely wrote:
Aerobic Glycolysis- the breaking down of glucose- produces 36/37 ATP.
Fat metabolism-the break down of triglycerides- will produce 460 ATP.
You're right! You are not running out of fat, you are running out of carbs. So shouldn't you train yourself to run mainly on lipolysis to be more efficient?
Train your body to be more efficient at lipolysis, by training in a carb depleted state.
Exactly what do you think efficient means?
And why do I have to keep repeating myself? Carbs provide energy that fat can't. That's why you should be worried about carbs and not fat.
Depletion runs are a great idea. I interviewed Dr. Trent Stellingwerff at length about the research and findings. I also experimented with this myself for several years - I would drink a cup of tea and head off for 3.5 hour runs. You can adapt.
John Hadd and Dr. Peter Snell both discovered that if you run out of glycogen stores on a run, you activate fast twitch fibers.
I applaud Solinsky on this. I hope he runs 2:06 right away...or faster of course...you never know!
isjsj wrote:
And why do I have to keep repeating myself? Carbs provide energy that fat can't. That's why you should be worried about carbs and not fat.
Technically a gram of fat provides more energy than a gram of carbs but I don't want to start an argument.
Not a Coach wrote:
Technically a gram of fat provides more energy than a gram of carbs but I don't want to start an argument.
Good thing you don't want to start an argument because you're already wrong.
Athleticsillustrated wrote:
Depletion runs are a great idea. I interviewed Dr. Trent Stellingwerff at length about the research and findings. I also experimented with this myself for several years - I would drink a cup of tea and head off for 3.5 hour runs. You can adapt.
John Hadd and Dr. Peter Snell both discovered that if you run out of glycogen stores on a run, you activate fast twitch fibers.
I applaud Solinsky on this. I hope he runs 2:06 right away...or faster of course...you never know!
At first I thought this was troll post, and Stellingwerff a made-up name, but I googled him and you're correct. BTW, and FWIW, everything I've read on the subject indicates the Kenyans do their earliest am runs in a "depleted" state.
rojo,THe purpose of what you did was not what is being debated here: you were doing "old school" carbo-loading ( low-carb diet, followed by depletion run, followed by high-carb diet) in order to maximize glycogen restoration/re-synthesis. It does work, however, as far as I know, studies now show that the initial low-carb diet is unnecessary (and possibly even the depletion run). A very high carb diet in the days leading into the race will result in maximal carb stores. A depletion run of some sort might help a little with greater-than-normal re-synthesis once carbo loading begins, however, most people dont' want to do a taxing depletion run so close to a big race, so you'd probably be better off just doing one last moderate run (that you'd do anyway, in a normal diet state), which will somewhat deplete your glycogen (as typical), than eat a high carb diet for a few days. And even the old-school approach resulted in slightly higher glycogen stores, it could result in a worse taper/more fatigue going into the race (as you seemed to find)What is being debated here: does training in the fasted state result in better performance via better fat burning rates and glycogen sparing effects, resulting in more glycogen to use later in the race. Different issue. And one that is not settled, but there is no firm research to answer yes.
rojo wrote:
Before I started to carbo-load, I used to deplete myself of carbs. I can't remember the specifics - JK if you are reading please post on here under your real name - but basically my last workout the week of the race would be done with no carbs.
I'd not take carbs for like 24 hours or something? 36? Can't remember how long. Then run this workout in the morning and immediately start to carboload.
I hated it. I remember vowing not to do it in the future.
Why? Because psychologically it destroyed me. The race was days away and the workout was like 3 mile tempo. I don't remember the specifics but like 3 miles at race pace felt impossible.
I'm not sure if Solinsky is talking about doing this right before the race or way out. I definitely don't recommend it right before the race - at least not your first marathon.
What kind of education do you have? Common nutritional fact that fat produces more ATP than carbs do. Denying it doesn't change the fact.
Thanks for the shout outs and being thrown under the bus, on this thread – wouldn’t expect anything else on Letsrun.
There are just so many misconceptions in this thread- let me make a bunch of comments:
1) My case study is just that: a case study- it is however, still peer-reviewed. I would STRESS, in elite sport we need more case-study published to showcase what is actually done with elite athletes! Has anyone actually read it yet? Read the paper for tons of references to double-blind cross-over studies examining “low carbohydrate availability training”.
2) “Low carbohydrate availability training” is NOT Atkins diet or chronically low carb. Prof. Louise Burke, who I have collaborated with, talks about that in this interview:
and my study showed that even 5 continuous days of low CHO decreases the body’s ability to use CHO in the mitochondria (see:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16188909
) which is NOT what you want. In fact, Noakes himself showed a decrease in performance with chronic low-carb diets (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Noakes+T+%2B+Havemann ). Which I then don’t understand why Noakes is so pro-Atkins for athletes?
3) This approach is periodic (only a few times per week) undertaking training in a low-CHO availability state….there are several ways to do this….read the case-study to see how/more:
http://www.runvictoriamarathon.com/pdf/Stellingwerf-MarathonCaseStudy.pdf
It involves both fasted running and running twice in 1 day with the second run on low muscle glycogen.
4) This is NOT about adapting the body to utilize more fat as a fuel during the marathon! (major mis-conception of this thread). Elite glycogen loaded and well-fueled marathoners will burn nearly 100% CHO during the race, with nearly 100% of that carbohydrate (both glycogen and glucose) being oxidized aerobically in the mitochondria (aerobic glycolysis).
5) We have known since 1920 that the body is more efficient per liter of oxygen consumed at burning CHO as a fuel than fat (see:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1263890/
). In fact it is about 5.5% more efficient- in other words, by burning 100% CHO while running you improve running economy by ~5.5% compared to burning 100% fat.
6) This approach is about providing the body with the stimulus during the bulk of training to MAKE MORE MITOCHONDRIA! This is what Keith Baar’s review is on- it is complex in the muscle:
https://secure.footprint.net/gatorade/prd/gssiweb/pdf/115_Baar_SSE.pdf
7) It is also about mimicking the demands of the last 10km of a marathon without having to run 32km first!
8) Also, given pacing and glycogen stores , even with the best fueling program in the world, an aggressive pace or goals will push the very limits of glycogen! So you need to have as much adaptation to oxidize glycogen in the mitochondria as possible (for ever glycogen unit in the mitochondrial you get 36 ATP, for ever glycogen unit reduced to lactate = 3ATP. Would you rather have 36 miles to the gallon or 3 miles to the gallon?).
9) Again, read the case study, we do NOT emphasize this in the last phase before competition, at this point, you want to maximize your body’s ability to use CHO as fuel, but ideally within the mitochondria (that you have stimulated from both training hard, training volume, but also for elites who are HYPER adapted, periodic low CHO availability training).
10) Do some athletes already do this naturally – for sure….but, it is much smarter to have a calculated training strategy around this, instead of just hoping for the best.
11) Finally, this is NOT about depleting your glycogen stores before Carbohydrate loading. I would not recommend that, as this is based on 1960’s science. The newest studies show you only need to have a proper taper with a high CHO diet and you’ll be all set.
12) Anecdotally a lot of African athletes do a lot of long/hard running nearly fasted. Pro cyclist have done this for 30 yrs...concept isn't that new, the science is catching up with practice.
13) And I would also do high quality session with lots of fuel in the tank/muscles to ensure quality (e.g. mile repeats etc).
I hope this clarifies some mis-conceptions…I’m sure I’ll get slammed by the desk scientist and the, obvious, plethora of world-record and Olympic medalist coaches that all have come onto this thread ;)
Cheers, Trent
/thread
Trent Stellingwerff wrote:
Thanks for the shout outs and being thrown under the bus, on this thread – wouldn’t expect anything else on Letsrun.
There are just so many misconceptions in this thread- let me make a bunch of comments:
1) My case study is just that: a case study- it is however, still peer-reviewed. I would STRESS, in elite sport we need more case-study published to showcase what is actually done with elite athletes! Has anyone actually read it yet? Read the paper for tons of references to double-blind cross-over studies examining “low carbohydrate availability training”.
2) “Low carbohydrate availability training” is NOT Atkins diet or chronically low carb. Prof. Louise Burke, who I have collaborated with, talks about that in this interview:
http://www.inigomujika.com/en/2013/08/interviews-with-the-elite-louise-m-burke-i-am-always-suspicious-when-new-dietary-crazes-hit/and my study showed that even 5 continuous days of low CHO decreases the body’s ability to use CHO in the mitochondria (see:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16188909) which is NOT what you want. In fact, Noakes himself showed a decrease in performance with chronic low-carb diets (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Noakes+T+%2B+Havemann ). Which I then don’t understand why Noakes is so pro-Atkins for athletes?
3) This approach is periodic (only a few times per week) undertaking training in a low-CHO availability state….there are several ways to do this….read the case-study to see how/more:
http://www.runvictoriamarathon.com/pdf/Stellingwerf-MarathonCaseStudy.pdfIt involves both fasted running and running twice in 1 day with the second run on low muscle glycogen.
4) This is NOT about adapting the body to utilize more fat as a fuel during the marathon! (major mis-conception of this thread). Elite glycogen loaded and well-fueled marathoners will burn nearly 100% CHO during the race, with nearly 100% of that carbohydrate (both glycogen and glucose) being oxidized aerobically in the mitochondria (aerobic glycolysis).
5) We have known since 1920 that the body is more efficient per liter of oxygen consumed at burning CHO as a fuel than fat (see:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1263890/). In fact it is about 5.5% more efficient- in other words, by burning 100% CHO while running you improve running economy by ~5.5% compared to burning 100% fat.
6) This approach is about providing the body with the stimulus during the bulk of training to MAKE MORE MITOCHONDRIA! This is what Keith Baar’s review is on- it is complex in the muscle:
https://secure.footprint.net/gatorade/prd/gssiweb/pdf/115_Baar_SSE.pdf7) It is also about mimicking the demands of the last 10km of a marathon without having to run 32km first!
8) Also, given pacing and glycogen stores , even with the best fueling program in the world, an aggressive pace or goals will push the very limits of glycogen! So you need to have as much adaptation to oxidize glycogen in the mitochondria as possible (for ever glycogen unit in the mitochondrial you get 36 ATP, for ever glycogen unit reduced to lactate = 3ATP. Would you rather have 36 miles to the gallon or 3 miles to the gallon?).
9) Again, read the case study, we do NOT emphasize this in the last phase before competition, at this point, you want to maximize your body’s ability to use CHO as fuel, but ideally within the mitochondria (that you have stimulated from both training hard, training volume, but also for elites who are HYPER adapted, periodic low CHO availability training).
10) Do some athletes already do this naturally – for sure….but, it is much smarter to have a calculated training strategy around this, instead of just hoping for the best.
11) Finally, this is NOT about depleting your glycogen stores before Carbohydrate loading. I would not recommend that, as this is based on 1960’s science. The newest studies show you only need to have a proper taper with a high CHO diet and you’ll be all set.
12) Anecdotally a lot of African athletes do a lot of long/hard running nearly fasted. Pro cyclist have done this for 30 yrs...concept isn't that new, the science is catching up with practice.
13) And I would also do high quality session with lots of fuel in the tank/muscles to ensure quality (e.g. mile repeats etc).
I hope this clarifies some mis-conceptions…I’m sure I’ll get slammed by the desk scientist and the, obvious, plethora of world-record and Olympic medalist coaches that all have come onto this thread ;)
Cheers, Trent
This might add another aspect to the discussion.
Canova writes: about "old school" burning fat and the "new school" using lactate as a fuel:
So, if with marathon runners "old style" our goal was to reduce the production of lactate at the speed of the race, in order to teach to the muscle fibers to use as fuel, at the same speed, more fatty acid and less glycogen (and this fact could build the ability in lasting longer at the Marathon Pace), now we look for increasing the speed of buffering, allowing the athletes in using a part of the lactate they produce.
A top marathon runner till 2000/2005 was no more able to overtake 10mml with any type of test, because the goal of his training was to reduce the production of lactate (that is connected with the consumption of glycogen).
A top marathon runner of today is still able to reach 15mml of lactate, if we do a max test (for example, 2' uphill at max speed).
So, they can use a percentage of lactate (may be 20%) as a new source of energy, and this fact means not only that the average of speed for all the marathon can be faster than before, but also that the index of resistant between different distances (for example, HM and Marathon) has the trend to become closer. If up until now we spoke about a 5% of difference between the HM speed and the Marathon speed for a well trained athlete (5% of 1 hour in HM is 1:03:00 that is a marathon in 2:06:00), now we look for reducing this index to 4% (in the above case, 4% of 1 hour is 2:24, so 62:24 x 2 = 2:04:48).
If we are able to create for an athlete able running 59' in HM (and now there are many) this level of specific endurance, we can have somebody able running in 2:02 in short time.
I don't know. Doing a speed workout right after a race ranks up there pretty high on the Darwin Award ladder of coaching ideas. A depletion run ranks up there too but not on the Mount Olympus of training garbage.
Depletion runs were a staple part of carbo loafing. You ran a depletion run, stayed away from carbs for a set period of time and then loaded carbs for three to four days.
Er ... what? wrote:
This might add another aspect to the discussion.
Canova writes: about "old school" burning fat and the "new school" using lactate as a fuel:
So, if with marathon runners "old style" our goal was to reduce the production of lactate at the speed of the race, in order to teach to the muscle fibers to use as fuel, at the same speed, more fatty acid and less glycogen (and this fact could build the ability in lasting longer at the Marathon Pace), now we look for increasing the speed of buffering, allowing the athletes in using a part of the lactate they produce.
A top marathon runner till 2000/2005 was no more able to overtake 10mml with any type of test, because the goal of his training was to reduce the production of lactate (that is connected with the consumption of glycogen).
A top marathon runner of today is still able to reach 15mml of lactate, if we do a max test (for example, 2' uphill at max speed).
So, they can use a percentage of lactate (may be 20%) as a new source of energy, and this fact means not only that the average of speed for all the marathon can be faster than before, but also that the index of resistant between different distances (for example, HM and Marathon) has the trend to become closer. If up until now we spoke about a 5% of difference between the HM speed and the Marathon speed for a well trained athlete (5% of 1 hour in HM is 1:03:00 that is a marathon in 2:06:00), now we look for reducing this index to 4% (in the above case, 4% of 1 hour is 2:24, so 62:24 x 2 = 2:04:48).
If we are able to create for an athlete able running 59' in HM (and now there are many) this level of specific endurance, we can have somebody able running in 2:02 in short time.
Can someone translate this into non-Canova English?
sure, this has to do with lactate production vs. lactate clearance. In fact, Canova completely supports what I wrote above: the marathon is a very glycolytic dependent event - not a fat burning event!
At higher running intensities (read: increased running speeds) athletes produce more lactate spill over. But, if they have optimal/increased number of mitochondria, then they can recycle this "fuel" (lactate is a fuel) to either directly oxidize it as energy (especially in non-working muscle) or the liver can take it up and convert it to glucose, which then can be used by working muscles (gluconeogenesis).
To increase lactate clearance requires some "stimulus" for the whole body to lactate...to increase lactate transporters and to increase lactate oxidation enzymes. In other words...some very high quality training is still pretty important in the marathon.