"Depletion runs" from the Chris Solinsky interview. This might be the worst idea I've ever heard.

When he said "light headed" that probably turned a lot of people off. But the part where he mentions "don't really fuel up beforehand and during" is really not that controversial. Many folks run in the morning after fast and not have anything other than coffee or water. I run better on empty anyway no food no deuce you are probably pounds lighter and training optimally.

Meb K does this. I looked online for the running times article, but the link says it no longer exists? I recall the article...

other info below

http://www.runnersworld.com/nutrition-for-runners/a-peek-inside-elite-marathon-fueling

Probably not the holy grail, but just limping around the internet it sounds pretty common among many of the more accomplished runners.

I've been doing it for years unintentionally because I run in the morning and I don't have time to get up, eat, let it digest, and then run. My ritual has been cup of coffee and out the door for anything up to 2 hours. Of course I'm not a very accomplished runner, so maybe that is the problem?

There is so much "bad science" referred to in this thread I can't believe the mods haven't deleted it yet.

eh.. wrote:

isjsj wrote:

Did Canova actually measure fat metabolism changes? Or does the idea just sound like it works? There's a difference. Either way, you'd be much better off ingesting carbs. Even if you can teach your body to burn fat, it will still be inferior to just eating some carbs.

If you wait a minute I will look up coach Canova´s telephone number for you. I´m sure he will appreciate your superior knowledge.

More hobbyjoggers trying to say Coach Canova doesn't know what he is talking about.

Results matter not scientific studies. Canova gets results.

A lot of science based training methodology from CrossFit has spilled over into mainstream running through the last few years.

Brian McKenzie and CrossFit endurance regularly do runs on empty stomach / without carbs / fasted.

There was another thread about how to lose body fat. Basically, first you have to adapt your body to take advantage of ketosis. You gotta be able to run on fat. If you burn fat, yes you lose a couple of percent in the short run (because carbs are available more rapid) but you will gain weight in the long run which will limit your progress.

Recommendation

1. Avoid carbs throughout the day

2. Have a coconut water before hard workouts such as tempos/intervals

3. don't carb up before long runs (ever)

4. Replenish with simple carbs within 1-2 h post (hard) workout. This is the only time of the day when carbs are not stored as body fat.

Any questions, please let me know.

The interview doesn't say anything about "teaching" the body to burn fat, and anyway that doesn't really make sense. If the blood glucose and hormone levels are right, it will happen. The idea of the depletion run is just to get the body beyond the glycogen-fueled state, so that the runner knows what it feels like. That knowledge can inform pacing and fueling strategy. Knowledge is power.

No, the idea is to improve the efficiency at which you burn fat so that you don't burn through your glycogen 2/3 through the race. That's definitely trainable; just ask the ketosis diet people.

I wonder if you get optimum results by training ketosis and knocking down sugar like the cookie monster during competition.

result oriented wrote:

I wonder if you get optimum results by training ketosis and knocking down sugar like the cookie monster during competition.

In moderation. My friends from CrossFit Endurance ® would train like this and then carb load with sweet potatoes, coconut water and fruit the day before and the morning of the race again. During the race, for the lack of better alternatives, they would chug down Gatorade/GUs. They ended up passing everyone from mile 18 when everyone else was hitting the wall.

At my peak fitness, I would go for hard 2+ hours bike rides to induce a bonk. Doing it riding gets the same effects without beating your legs up.

I assume he fasts to bring it on sooner but why not just swim or bike to get the same training stimulus with less risk.

Hey Chris think about it, you already got injured once doing deez workouts and now you can't break 13:20 you want another injury BTW I trademarked osum®

Go Badgers wrote:

Really? Of all the ideas you've ever heard in your life, none of them are as bad as this? Seriously?

He has never heard that Barrack Obama has been the President for the last 6 years.

Scientfic confermation that solinsky is a dumb ass

There has been a scientific study that showed something similar was very beneficial for thoroughbred racehorses.

As other posters have said, there is nothing particularly new about this, Eamonn Martin, who won the 1993 London Marathon on his debut commented on doing something similar at the time.

eh.. wrote:

isjsj wrote:

Did Canova actually measure fat metabolism changes? Or does the idea just sound like it works? There's a difference. Either way, you'd be much better off ingesting carbs. Even if you can teach your body to burn fat, it will still be inferior to just eating some carbs.

If you wait a minute I will look up coach Canova´s telephone number for you. I´m sure he will appreciate your superior knowledge.

I didn't say it was superior knowledge. It's just knowledge. It's a fact that carbs provide more energy than fat. Are you suggesting otherwise?

Quote: That is science but a super small sample size.

There must be more out there?

Um, let's see. Somebody could look it up: The last year more than 100 American Marathoners broke 2:20. Just my guess but that year would predate Gu, Powergel, maybe even Gatorade.

"Depletion Run" - "Bonking" - So much is being made over the Salazar group's "overcompensation" training model as it applies to general fitness. This concept of requiring the liver, pancreas, and overall "energy" system of the body to overcompensate from a complete emptying process is nothing new. It just makes perfect sense that the body knows how to replenish it's energy reserves once they have been depleted. If you never deplete them, how will these systems ever learn how to compensate to the demands of long endurance activity.

Body builders and some elite sprinters also do fasted training on occasion (say once a week to every other week). For them the logic is increasing insulin sensitivity so that they can recover faster from their other workouts and get more of a benefit from their non-fasted workouts.

isjsj wrote:

eh.. wrote:

If you wait a minute I will look up coach Canova´s telephone number for you. I´m sure he will appreciate your superior knowledge.

I didn't say it was superior knowledge. It's just knowledge. It's a fact that carbs provide more energy than fat. Are you suggesting otherwise?

Canova gets superior results. That makes his knowledge more superior than yours.

The debate isn't whether carbs provide more energy. It is if glycogen depleted runs are beneficial in training.

So if you are to add this to your training it should help the body learn to use other fuel right. What I am wondering is why are we trying to teach our bodies to adapt this way when we have access to being able to fuel throughout a marathon. So the elite who use depletion runs able to take less fuel during a marathon?

I would like to know how often these depletion runs are used and how do they recover from them. I have done a few depletion runs by accident before and they usually kill me for a few days. Do the elites have easy training for a day or more to help recover. Do they do these depletion runs during a lower milage week? Seems like you have to be very careful when injecting this into your training.

I feel this type of run is stupid for the average runner who already has little time to recover and probably does them occasionally anyways because of the lack of time to eat before morning runs.