Marathon longest training run - over distance?

fred wrote:

minong wrote:

Fred, that says nothing about your "no carbs" crap that you threw out which is BS from back in the day. And just because Canova advocates a single hard LR in a training cycle doesn't mean to do it every week. You said the OP is wasting his time running 6:40-7:00 on his LR's which is totally not the case.

If your buddy could routinely run 20 in 6's but could only manage 2:32, he ran his best races in training.

Nope. It's on this board somewhere where Canova says they

run that second hard workout in a non-replenished carb

state.

"An interesting key session he has is 20k in the am with last 10k pretty hard (marathon pace?) and the same in the afternoon. In between sessions he doesn't advocate eating too much to stimulate running hard on low glycogen."

I will back Fred on this one. Canova did say that. I had linked it in another thread not too long ago. I will try to track it down again.

I also agree with pretty much everything Runner Guy#69.

I much prefer a long run near MP. That doesn't mean 20 miles at MP but 16 or 18 with 14 - 16 miles at MP. That will prepare you much better for race day than an over distance slow run. The distance isn't the big factor, the pace is.

I'm no where close to 2:30 so take it for what it is worth.

Here is the thread where Canova talks about running in a glycogen depleted state.

Kenyan Trails (page 3)

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3923991&page=2

Wait. Is this is legit thread about training that's not derailed by bashing or trolling? What?!?!

Stuff like this is why I was drawn to Letsrun 8 years ago. Bump.

I'm not aiming for 2:30 (hoping for 2:45), but I'll give my two cents...

I agree with the poster that said a single long run won't make the difference. That's probably the most important response thus far.

My current training has me alternating a long run of 20-24 miles one weekend, with a hard effort or a race the next week. I've done a 16 mile progression run, 10-mile race, and I have a 1/2 next weekend - as far as the hard efforts go. And I plan on doing what another poster mentioned - an ~18 miler with ~14 at MP.

Finally, a quick Nate Jenkins story...this one time I went horseback riding with Jenkins, but there weren't any horses around. Well, Nate throws a saddle on my back and rides me around Wyoming for three days. Well, wouldn't you know it, my stamina increases with each day and I develop tremendous leg muscles. So anyway, Jenkins decides to enter me in the Breeders' Cup, right, under the name Turkish Delight. And I'm running in second place, and I'm running and I break my ankle! They’re about to shoot me. Then someone from the crowd yells out, God bless him, 'Don't shoot him, he's a human.'

sub02:30:00orbust wrote:

Previously I have run a maximum of 24.5miles 4 weeks before a marathon. I usually complete this without water or gels on a trail with a steep 400m hill at the end.

I'm averaging 85mpw

PR 02:33:00

Is there any benefit to running marathon distance or over distance in the training build up? Also, is 4 weeks out long enough to recover?

Excluding races, I have never run further than 17 at once. I do run 14 four mornings per week though. However, it should be noted that my PR is 6 minutes slower than yours. Hopefully it will be closer to the same after May 4th.

… I did not mean to submit my last post yet. Whoops. To continue - Yes, I would imagine that there is some benefit to running over distance in a training run. Probably no much different than what you're doing now though. 85 mpw is about where I am at and, as you probably already know, this is probably not enough if you are hoping to get to the "next level". If I were you, I would not be at all worried about increasing the length of my long run. Instead, I would be thinking about how I could increase my mileage from 85 to 100+.

I think the poster above me is right on track - you said he should try to increase his mileage, I said he should try to increase quality under the assumption that 85 was a limit for him. I think a quick fix would be to cut out a few of those doubles and keep the current mileage, especially if you're eyeing a race in a couple of months. 85 MPW is not as effective as it could be if you're running four 6/8 doubles a week. Those breaks are keeping you out of the fat-metabolizing (not sure if right word?) zone that marathoners are trying to get into, which you should be getting credit for running as much as you do.

The question shouldn't be "Is there a benefit to running over distance?" You'll find lots of examples of people who do well doing that. The question is, "Is running overdistance the most beneficial thing I can do?" Given that your training doesn't look like a traditional marathoner's at the moment (despite decent mileage) means that there are other places to focus your energy and stress your system which will pay off more. I would emphasize cutting the number of doubles and throwing quality work into long runs of 18-22 miles. I would bet you could even run better mileage by cutting doubles because, frankly, doubles are a time-suck, and you can derive more marathon-specific benefits to running 14 easier than running 6/8 like a maniac.

The marathon is not a sprint! Even for the guys running 4:45 miles.

First, Canova trains 2:04 guys, not 2:33 guys. Big difference. But even for the OP, one or two long MP runs as part of a LR during a buildup is perfectly fine and I'd highly recommend it. Anyone that recommends doing that every week is either nuts, or looking to win a Major. I could be reading Fred wrong, but it seems like that was what he was advocating.

Secondly, and we all love Canova, but he's not the likes of Noakes or others when it comes to the SCIENCE of exercise physiology. Any possible adaption from intentionally running in a glycogen depleted state is offset in the end by the degradation in training ability. Produce the science that says otherwise, and I'll be happy to change my opinion on this.

My target marathon pace is about 05:42

My tempo pace is currently 05:45 (max 10.5miles currently)

If I reduce my mileage on my long run and maybe cut out a double then I should be able to hit my marathon pace in my tempo session.

I'm planning to build up the tempo distance to about 14miles, is this enough?

Also, how should I increase my mileage if I cut out doubles?

My target marathon pace is about 05:42

My tempo pace is currently 05:45 (max 10.5miles currently)

If I reduce my mileage on my long run and maybe cut out a double then I should be able to hit my marathon pace in my tempo session.

I'm planning to build up the tempo distance to about 14miles, is this enough?

Also, how should I increase my mileage if I cut out doubles?

As for your tempo pace, I think that's a very respectable 10 mile tempo, and getting up to 14 would be more than enough. There's guys like Hall and Meb who get their tempos close to 20, but they're freaks - mortals won't be able to recover well enough from those runs to get in quality running the following week. If you're incorporating it into a long or medium-long run, even 2 x 10k is a very solid effort for a younger person (my assumption).

If you do cut out a double, you'll have a 14 mile day right off the bat - that's a good medium-long run that you can build on. You'll have the effect of increasing mileage without even doing it. If you build up your primary runs to 10/12, then 100 MPW with three doubles (and 18 miles from the doubles) would be pretty doable, I'd think.

There are people with much more experience at running 100 mile weeks than myself - I was a prissy miler for too long. But when you do build up, you have to make sacrifices in your quality work. Considering you're getting good quality work in now at 85 MPW, I'd keep that rolling through your next race and then see about bumping it up after that. Others might disagree.

I agree with what Runner Guy #69 said above, but just be sure you run those 10/12 milers slowly on easy days as you build mileage. 12 miles isn't really a "recovery" run in the traditional sense, so don't worry about pace.

minong wrote:

First, Canova trains 2:04 guys, not 2:33 guys. Big difference. But even for the OP, one or two long MP runs as part of a LR during a buildup is perfectly fine and I'd highly recommend it. Anyone that recommends doing that every week is either nuts, or looking to win a Major. I could be reading Fred wrong, but it seems like that was what he was advocating.

Secondly, and we all love Canova, but he's not the likes of Noakes or others when it comes to the SCIENCE of exercise physiology. Any possible adaption from intentionally running in a glycogen depleted state is offset in the end by the degradation in training ability. Produce the science that says otherwise, and I'll be happy to change my opinion on this.

Science is good and everything but I'll take results over science any day. When it comes to training questions I put my faith in Canova. I just try to dumb it down to make it work for me.

minong wrote:

First, Canova trains 2:04 guys, not 2:33 guys. Big difference. But even for the OP, one or two long MP runs as part of a LR during a buildup is perfectly fine and I'd highly recommend it. Anyone that recommends doing that every week is either nuts, or looking to win a Major. I could be reading Fred wrong, but it seems like that was what he was advocating.

Nope, Canova had the big boingo 40k a month out.

Of course, back in the day when many guys were running faster marathons, they would run the first 20 miles of a

marathon hard for a raining run.

And some guys wouldn't taper much for a marathon.

But unlike all those sub 2:12 Americans last year, what did they know?

From all the advice given it sounds like increasing my long run at this stage won't be the most beneficial step in my training plan.

I had planned for this Sunday (4 weeks out) to be my last hard long run. So, instead of running 24.5miles at 06:40-07:00 pace I will do about 16-18mile progressive and finish the last 3-4miles at my marathon pace.

Please report back on how the marathon goes.

minong wrote:

fred wrote:

Doing the high mileage day with no carbs between workouts

is one way of reinforcing fat burning.

This is non-sense from a scientific standpoint, but if mentally it helps, go for it. More likely it'll lead to a crappy second run therefor reducing the training benefit.

It's not 1970 anymore.

You're absolutely right, it's 2014 and you should maybe look at the current research before totally dismissing an an idea and calling it nonsense without citing any references.

It has in fact been shown that training in a glycogen depleted state enhances gene transcription of several markers of training adaption.

Plenty of people swear by running longer than the marathon distance and have run really well. It seems to be kind of in fashion now. I experimented with doing runs like that and found that they made no difference. My fastest marathon came with no long runs beyond 16-17 miles in maybe a year and a half before the race.

I knew a guy who ran the London-Brighton race once and said it definitely improved his marathoning just because after racing for over 50 miles, marathons just didn't seem all that long.

I wonder how the OP did