Not pointing fingers or anything, but I thought about this after Millrose.
He was a ~3:59 guy in college who improved to 3:55-3:56 for a few years which is an understandable level of improvement. Now he's, what, 30 or close? Dropping a 3:52 indoors.
Pretend something comes out tomorrow - surprised?
yes/no
I say no only because nothing surprises me anymore. He does seem to me like a good, clean guy.
He was too confident in his kick.
Sorry, I am cynical. But he was.
Will Leer is 28. Since when are guys supposed to be on the decline at age 28? He ran Div 3, so maybe he's just a late bloomer.
I'd be very surprised.
And to compare Hesch on any level to Leer is absurd. You should apologize to Mr. Leer.
prob the wrong guy to comment on this but, yes I'd be as surprised as any. there's dozens of reasons completely aside from the "he's a good guy" explanation and, frankly, he doesn't need to go my route, he's that talented. think about torrance, didn't he run 3:52 at some point? I'd say Leer's a solid head above DT, if not shoulders too, so not unexpected in the least when measured to that rubric. I'm just happy that he's finally not underperforming as this level has been pretty evident w/ leer for more than a while now.
btw, that track is the fastest I've ever run on, I literally always felt like I was getting catapulted forward when I'd run there.....
dude~
The guy has always had a devastating kick. I feel like 3:52 is in line with what he has been capable of over the last few years. Also, he's been working on his 5 and 3k times, so maybe the strength is paying off? Nothing to outrageous about his progression to me.
OP is just stupid.
Leer's PR progression over the previous outdoor seasons is:
3:37
3:37
3:37
3:36
3:36
3:35
And 3:52.x indoors is equal to somewhere in the 3:34-3:35 range, depending on the decimals. So, at age 28, a guy has run maybe a half second PR. This is also a guy who frequently runs his fastest or near fastest times early in the season. And this is during a season with the only World Championships indoors, so he's likely in shape hoping to make that team, having never made one before.
Any pro COULD be doping, of course, but there's nothing here that doesn't pass the sniff test.
Not until he does pushups at the finish line after winning the race.
I agree with the OP. To me, Leer was always an also ran. Making finals at US championships but never going further. I'd compare him to Martin Fagan before Hesch, as somebody to plateued and wanted to keep moving up the ranks.
I was suspicious, watching Leer's locomotive of a body move so effortlessly against the flyweights of Lalang and Willis.
The Single Voice of Reason wrote:
OP is just stupid.
Leer's PR progression over the previous outdoor seasons is:
3:37
3:37
3:37
3:36
3:36
3:35
And 3:52.x indoors is equal to somewhere in the 3:34-3:35 range, depending on the decimals. So, at age 28, a guy has run maybe a half second PR. This is also a guy who frequently runs his fastest or near fastest times early in the season. And this is during a season with the only World Championships indoors, so he's likely in shape hoping to make that team, having never made one before.
Any pro COULD be doping, of course, but there's nothing here that doesn't pass the sniff test.
+1
It was inevitable that the letsrun message board would rain on Leer's parade.
Somehow, the ethical standard here has become not just that you have a right to make drug claims about someone who's done nothing more than pull it together in a great race, but that it's your mission to do so and that it's somehow virtuous to do so. Pretty disturbing.
Wossamotta wrote:
It was inevitable that the letsrun message board would rain on Leer's parade.
Somehow, the ethical standard here has become not just that you have a right to make drug claims about someone who's done nothing more than pull it together in a great race, but that it's your mission to do so and that it's somehow virtuous to do so. Pretty disturbing.
I make it my mission because I care about the integrity of the sport. It is not my goal to see Leer or any questionable athlete condemmed, but to raise awaremeas that things are not what they seem, as well as to encourage critical discourse on the subject.
Those who dismiss skeptics as quacks are not healthy for the sport. Those, like the poster above who brought up his consistant progression who are willing to be critical are the kind of fans I want to populate the sport. Fans like you who bring blind faith only serve to be complicit in the deterioration of the sport's integrity.
He has always had a big kick which indeed makes him a threat.
I don't bring "blind faith," Clerk. I am well aware there are problems in the sport and am probably more suspicious than most. But you bring nothing, no valid basis for calling Leer a "questionable athlete." As or thing not being what they seem, what they seem like is that a guy coming off a tough training cycle managed to beat two stars who were fading in the stretch. Lawi was actually stumbling at the end.
You think you're staving off the deterioration of the sport with groundless allegations? You have quite the inflated sense of yourself.
plus'er wrote:
The Single Voice of Reason wrote:OP is just stupid.
Leer's PR progression over the previous outdoor seasons is:
3:37
3:37
3:37
3:36
3:36
3:35
And 3:52.x indoors is equal to somewhere in the 3:34-3:35 range, depending on the decimals. So, at age 28, a guy has run maybe a half second PR. This is also a guy who frequently runs his fastest or near fastest times early in the season. And this is during a season with the only World Championships indoors, so he's likely in shape hoping to make that team, having never made one before.
Any pro COULD be doping, of course, but there's nothing here that doesn't pass the sniff test.
+1
+ another one
Wossamotta wrote:
I don't bring "blind faith," Clerk. I am well aware there are problems in the sport and am probably more suspicious than most. But you bring nothing, no valid basis for calling Leer a "questionable athlete." As or thing not being what they seem, what they seem like is that a guy coming off a tough training cycle managed to beat two stars who were fading in the stretch. Lawi was actually stumbling at the end.
You think you're staving off the deterioration of the sport with groundless allegations? You have quite the inflated sense of yourself.
You're right. Having dug deeper, Leer's progression is not suspicious. Further, his race was not a demonstration of out musclig the field, but having more left than a fadig Lalang who led most of the race, and better positioning than Willis who triedthe inside and got bumped and stuck.
Based on his performance, there's not any basis for calling him questionable. But in general, any professional athlete is in fact, questionable. I dont think in terms of clean or dirty, but "level of potential surprise/dissppoinent". I think fans overexaggerate the morality of doping, making the doped/clean binary a matter of character. I belive that a betrer question than clean/dirty is "can the athlete be persuaded to dope?" This takes into account the culture of the athletes group, the faith in their coach, pressure of the profession, and all other outside forces that do affect an athletes choice. Ive been meanin to start a thread on this, so keep an eye out later today
I wouldn't be totally surprised if Leer is on something because he seems like that kind of guy that has done everything he can do training wise and is super motivated but is just lacking that little extra something needed to be truly world class.
That being said, because he is a hard worker, has such a passion for the sport and keeps going after missing goals, I root for him and hope he isn't taking anything.
In the Millrose Mile I think he just ran the perfect race. He sat just off the pace at the begining and to his surprise he probably had a lot more left at the end than he thought. Plus he got a little lucky with Lawi and Willis bumping into each other.
Clean.
and you can have a beer with him about it.
I get that Leer and Hesch are both journeyman type runners, but given that Leer is a more accomplished runner than the admitted cheat, I don't enjoy that this thread was started.
I've seen Leer race on TV and he is usually a threat to make the US team in a fairly competitive event. I don't think I had even heard of Hesch until the whole mexican EPO thing came out...but yeah, speculating that the winner of a race is on PEDs isn't a very original thought.
3:52 indoor mile clean= world record holder and potentially the best miler of all-time if he goes dirty. Think about that.