HYPOTHETICAL: you have a HS senior 800/1600 guy who is IMPERVIOUS to running-related injuries. What's his training plan?

Realism wrote:

NotAustin18 wrote:

For example, a 55 400 means he should run a 60 sec 400 pace for 800 so 2 flat. So the 55/203 guy is actually lacking endurance/aerobic-strength.

you know nothing about 800 running if you think an ideal race is evenly split (eg 60-60 for 2:00)

the only way an athlete should be approaching even splits in an 800 race is if they are very slow sprinters with excellent endurance which is not the case in this hypothetical scenario. Even then a good race should be positive split by at least 1.5ish seconds

for a 55s 400 guy with decent but not exceptional endurance a PR 800 would go 59.low-62.5 for 2:01.high

I'm not saying he even splits it. I'm just saying a 60 sec pace for 800m. If he splits 58-62 that's 2 flat, and 2 flat is a 60 sec AVERAGE pace. People like David Rudisha show that your first lap in the 800 should be 2-4 sec faster than your 2nd lap. Once Rudisha split 48-52 and take on some decimals and it came out to 141. Another time he split 49-51. So of course it shouldn't be even split, but Rudisha can run a 45.15 400m (early last spring before the injury) and he runs a 50 pace in the 800m.

I think a key component to this thread is if this hypothetical kid has to race in weekly meets like most high school kids. The weekly races are not necessarily a negative, but definitely make the approach to training different than what we see coming from the elites or even college runners.

I've read that an athlete with equal speed/endurance should only slow down by a pace of 4-5 seconds(depending on how fast they are) per 400m as he moves up each event. For example, a 55 400 means he should run a 60 sec 400 pace for 800 so 2 flat. So the 55/203 guy is actually lacking endurance/aerobic-strength. Now if he gets that proportionate he runs 2 flat 800, and then a 65 pace or 420 for 1600m.[/quote]

I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with this, just simply noting that this theory would have him running 65 pace for 1200, not 1600, and 70 pace for 1600, which is exactly what the op had him running.

Probably not wrote:

I've read that an athlete with equal speed/endurance should only slow down by a pace of 4-5 seconds(depending on how fast they are) per 400m as he moves up each event. For example, a 55 400 means he should run a 60 sec 400 pace for 800 so 2 flat. So the 55/203 guy is actually lacking endurance/aerobic-strength. Now if he gets that proportionate he runs 2 flat 800, and then a 65 pace or 420 for 1600m.

I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with this, just simply noting that this theory would have him running 65 pace for 1200, not 1600, and 70 pace for 1600, which is exactly what the op had him running.[/quote]

Well the theory is for standard distances, 1200 isn't a normal distance. So like 400-800-1500/mile-3k/2mile-5k-10k-13.1-26.2. Now when you look at elites, there 10k is often less than 2 sec slower per 400 than their 5k, and thats because they are elite 5k/10k types. They're strength/endurance oriented. Their endurance is better than speed. Given this understanding of the theory, what are your thoughts on it? Also is the theory only accurate up to a specific event/distance?

Ideal training plan, IMO:

*This plan with the expectation that he will be racing at least once a week, though for high schoolers its often twice. For the sake of argument, let's say he's training for meets on Saturdays.

Monday: Speed session, 400,300,200 x (4-6 sets) with 1-2m recovery b/t intervals and 3-4 minutes b/t sets.

Tuesday: Recovery day - 50-60 minutes at easy pace with abs/core exercises after (pushups, sit ups, planks, etc.)

Wednesday: Endurance/strength training - 4-5x 1000m at 3200m - 5k - pace depending on how aggressive we want to be with his training regimin and race schedule.

Thursday - 45-60 minutes depending on how sore/tired the individual is. Higher end if his legs are feeling fresh, 45-50 if he feels worn out. Finish with strides and core.

Friday - pre meet, 35-40 minutes easy shake out. 4-6x 100m strides with drills and simple abdominal work.

Saturday - race. Win shit.

Sunday - long run, 75-90 minutes increasing as individual's fitness progresses.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

This, very much this. For an in-season training program, this is great. In fact, i'm going to use for my "getting in shape" program," with Saturdays as do-whatever-the-hell-you-want-day...

Realism wrote:

NotAustin18 wrote:

For example, a 55 400 means he should run a 60 sec 400 pace for 800 so 2 flat. So the 55/203 guy is actually lacking endurance/aerobic-strength.

you know nothing about 800 running if you think an ideal race is evenly split (eg 60-60 for 2:00)

he said pace not split. read a little slower.

i agree with ukathleticscoach really.

A well-trained 800 runner should be able to run their 400pr x 2.2, approximately. For example,

Rudisha: 100.91/45.1 = 2.23

Symmonds: 102.95/47.45 = 2.17

Rudy being the sprint type, Nick the enduro type. Few elites have a much higher pr ratio than that. Juantorena's was slightly over 2.3, and he was 400m wr holder.

so, 55x2.2 = 121 = 2:01 making it the best pr of the bunch, as the 4:40 is weak compared to the 2:03. And considering the athlete is pure MD and not a 400 runner, a Symmonds-like ratio should be more accurate:

55x2.17 = 119.35 = 1:59.35

Does that mean the athlete is lacking endurance and should focus on that? No, given that he's an 800/1600 type, it's safe to assume the dude is already training like a miler and has more undeveloped potential in the long sprint, in addition to more obvious natural ability. Training should be plenty of plyometrics, drills and other sprint workouts to get the 400 down to 50, while maintaining the miler training enough to maintain that 103/55 = 2.24 PR ratio for a blistering 50x2.24= 1:52. Best chance for a state title.

What about the Mid day run, do not forget about that.

` wrote:

Early am: 30 miles moderate, with hills

Late am: 40x400m @ mile race pace (200m recovery)

Early pm: 30 miles moderate, with hills

Late pm: 15-mile tempo

Repeat daily.

I'd attribute him staying healthy to not over-training and having a good solid base established over the summer that has carried over through the fall and winter. The program would probably strength, strength, and more strength work during the winter with some speed thrown in there as he gets towards championship season. Then for outdoors just continuing with strength through March and gradually incorporating more speed as you get through April and May.

oldboy wrote:

The correct answer here is that you train him the way you would train anyone else with those PRs. He's a senior in high school and still has, hopefully, a long career ahead of him. You don't try to squeeze the most life out of him as a high schooler because he won't get injured. Josh McDougal was pretty impervious to injuries for quite some time.

Good advice. When injuries come, they tend to come in a flood. I know runners who've taken almost 2 years to get back to normal with periods of haphazard running and reinjury.

Have him run 3:59 pace as long as he can, every single day.

Eventually he'll be able to hold it for two miles

And old but good thread on Brandon O'Keefe

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2416751

ccrunner627 wrote:

Have him run 3:59 pace as long as he can, every single day.

Eventually he'll be able to hold it for two miles

He should run 3:59 pace at least 3 times a day if he really wants to be any good.

This hypothetical athlete under performs as the distance increases, so the focus should be on improving on the 1600M which in turn should improve all the other marks.

The mileage can be kept at 50mi/wk however the quality sessions should be done 2X's/wk.

Examples of these quality sessions:

3-4X 300M @ 800M or 3X 600M @ 1600M finishing with 3200M Tempo

4-5X 800M @ 3200M finishing with 3200M Tempo

4X 200M @ 800M + 2X 1200M @ 3200M

All paces are at date pace or equivalent.

I know a lot of people like to use cut downs, however I prefer doing faster reps first to improve economy and the longer reps or tempo for specific endurance. As the season progresses use trials and races to tease out peak efforts.

just4fun wrote:

Bump, and burnout still applies.

^ This is the catch. You're looking at avoiding the negative, but not the adaptive elements of training. So what if the runner is impervious to running-related injuries if he doesn't respond positively to or develop from training any differently from other runners at his level? The "impervious" element is basically a red herring. Maybe in his build up phase after a layoff he moves to maximum weekly mileage quicker than the normal progression, but I don't see a rationale for making other changes based on his "super power."

I was this guy.

~54

~2:04

~4:39

~10:05

The only problem is that I was way overweight. You teach him how to be tough and handle work, but you don't overwork him. Then, you train him just like you would train anyone else- Good periodization with an emphasis on recovery. You'll end up with a runner that may not earn a scholarship on any D1 team, but would certainly be welcome.

Training 7 days a week with 1 "active rest" day

4 hard days,ex

Tue - special endurance

Thu - sprint session

Sat - special endurance

Sun - max speed/test session

Easy days Mon/Wed 30-45 min cross trainer

"Active rest" Fridays : 15-30 min easy bike indoor

I'm 400/800 runner, doing this - previously i was a lot injured but currently running 3 months with this

PR 50,52 400 m last week, 800 m 1,52,2 early january (19 year)

Drinking Beetroot juice before every hard session (4 days a week) and I'm able to follow 3.55 1500 m guys on 1k/500m race pace sessions even though they are running 60-70+ km a week and I'm at 25 max 30! km a week..

Message:

Early am: 30 miles moderate, with hills

Late am: 40x400m @ mile race pace (200m recovery)

Early pm: 30 miles moderate, with hills

Late pm: 15-mile tempo

(quote)

hahahahahaha excellent