Craig Virgin and Fam have interesting comments on Rupp and NOPe

Mr. Obvious wrote:

rupp-certified saladbar wrote:

"I wish USATF would release what Therapeutic Use Exemption medical treatments that Galen is on that may give us one hint of what is really going on here. I am tired of rumors about TUE's and we need some transparency in this area to maintain the integrity in our sport."

What would be the problem with this?

I think that we would all like to believe in elite performances and a fair playing field.

Thyroid medication does not require a TUE. I have no idea who in Salazar's group is taking thyroid or if they are taking other TUEs, but thyroid is the one that is most often talked about.

Do you think that any elite groups (including NOP) would release their TUEs?

What about disclosing other medication usage? For non-banned medications that are known to enhance performance. e.g. Thyroid supplements, aka "the lightness"

. (Obviously with certain exclusions. We don't need to know every antibiotic prescription.)

Given Armstrong et al's use of (fake) prescriptions to explain away adverse findings from drug testing, this seems reasonable.

I'll ask the board again: If you want to believe in elite performances and a fair playing field, what would be the problem with this?

I'm under the impression that TUEs have to be submitted to and approved by some official governing body. Just because your oiddly butt doesn't know the details doesn't mean anything is amiss.

I'm under the impression that TUEs have to be submitted to and approved by some official governing body. Just because your oiddly butt doesn't know the details doesn't mean anything is amiss.

the virgin fb discussion is getting very good - here's our malmo, giving salazar the benefit of the doubt:

Craig. I talked to Alberto a few months ago. He told me that while RUPP and others have had TUEs in the past, no one in NOP CURRENTLY have any TUEs. Alberto answered any and every question that I asked, to my satisfaction...and I know all of the hard questions.

You have to remember Rupp is a 13:00, 26:48, 3:51 guy. Ask yourself a question -- what exactly kind of workouts are 3:51/13:00/26:48 guys are supposed to be doing -- on a tuned indoor track that didn't even exist when you and I were running? Repeat 4:20 miles with a lot of rest in between? Yawn. They get after in on the last one? Yawn.

Also, there is a fundamental difference in your own training vs Alberto's own, and now his coaching. When you were running your workouts weren't the end-all. They were merely a step towards the races -- that's when you put your game-face on. Alberto the runner had his game-face on in training. As a coach, his runners have their game-faces on in workouts. Different mindset.

Craig. You ran a 4:01 mile. A 13:20 5k and a 27:29 10k. Your training isn't supposed to be like Rupps anymore than a 4:05/14:00/29:00 guy's training is supposed to be like yours. You trained on crappy tracks, the likes that some of this current generation could never even imagine. Rupp-Certified tracks didn't even exist. The Illinois Tartan surface doesn't compare to modern Mondo surfaces. Your diet was classic truck-stop fare - The Farmer's Speacial - bacon, eggs, homefries, short stack of pancakes.

If Rupp ever ate a Farmer's Special his head would explode.

11 minutes ago · Edited · Like

not many people canrun a 4:01mile. even less can run one after a 8:07 @mile and then 4 previous miles mostly around 4:20 or under. no one can do it clean.

Fm's comment is not "interesting." He's miffed. Period.

DEREKRUBIS666 wrote:

not many people canrun a 4:01mile. even less can run one after a 8:07 @mile and then 4 previous miles mostly around 4:20 or under. no one can do it clean.

think of your 10k pace. then think of your 2 mile pace. Do they seem so awesome?

cause that's what rupp did - mile repeats at 10k pace with one at 3k pace - you have to see that isn't so awesome.

think of what you can run a mile in right now. Add 12 seconds. Could you do that after a 2 mile race and some mile repeats? I know I could.

Correct, no TUE is needed for thyroid meds, but Rupp has previously been linked with steroidal asthma inhalers which do require one.

Crazy recovery tricks. Jordan and Alexi have used it too.

http://t.co/pLKpnaUTXG

http://t.co/adAEEdDMtq

rupp-certified saladbar wrote:

Do you think that any elite groups (including NOP) would release their TUEs?

What about disclosing other medication usage? For non-banned medications that are known to enhance performance. e.g. Thyroid supplements, aka "the lightness"

http://speedendurance.com/2013/05/09/liothyronine-hypothyroid-thyroid-deficiency-controversy

. (Obviously with certain exclusions. We don't need to know every antibiotic prescription.)

Given Armstrong et al's use of (fake) prescriptions to explain away adverse findings from drug testing, this seems reasonable.

I'll ask the board again: If you want to believe in elite performances and a fair playing field, what would be the problem with this?

I don't think they would release any medical treatments that they were not required to, including thyroid which WADA does not consider performance enhancing.

I don't think they would release TUE medications to anybody but the relevant authorities.

I don't blame them for either of those, I don't really like the idea of anybody knowing my medical history except my doctor.

fjord fl fjord wrote:

I'm under the impression that TUEs have to be submitted to and approved by some official governing body. Just because your oiddly butt doesn't know the details doesn't mean anything is amiss.

Of course they have to be approved, idiot. And of course Virgin and Fam know the details.

The ACTUAL QUESTION is whether the "exceptions" should be made transparent. Would you want to know if they guy you were racing had a TUE allowing him to take HGH? Because it's happening.

Just because you don't know it doesn't mean nothing is amiss.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

I don't think they would release any medical treatments that they were not required to, including thyroid which WADA does not consider performance enhancing.

I don't think they would release TUE medications to anybody but the relevant authorities.

I don't blame them for either of those, I don't really like the idea of anybody knowing my medical history except my doctor.

I think you're right all around.

That is EXACTLY why transparency around TUEs in needed. (And why WADA need to wake up to the reality of thyroid supplementation as performance enhancing. VICTOR CONTE thinks it should be banned, FFS.

part of the problem wrote:

Haven't we witnessed enough athletes get busted without testing positive to know that it is not a indication of innocence?

What is? Or, do you actually prefer to remain cynical and bash every professional runner who establishes impressive new Personal Records?

I'm sorry, but even the skeptical "guilty until proven innocent" crowd needs to establish some ground rules regarding what does prove their innocence!

More high profile runners liking Virgin's post. Including Boston Billy and Matt Scherer.

did anyone else notice that

Malmo says

Al Sal says

that no one on the NOP has any TUEs

It's not exactly hard evidence, but interesting.

I like Galen and CV, but it is sad to see CV making unsubstantiated commons, does CV know something the rest of us don't know?

Short school bus wrote:

Correct, no TUE is needed for thyroid meds, but Rupp has previously been linked with steroidal asthma inhalers which do require one.

Corticosteroid is 1st line treatment for asthma via

inhalation for inflammation of twitchy airways.

road rashed wrote:

More high profile runners liking Virgin's post. Including Boston Billy...

That's a different Bill Rodgers.

Rupp might be doping. He also might not be. But this race/workout combination is only a piece of evidence for either of those arguments if one already assumes the conclusion one wants to draw.

Is this an impressive bit of running? Yes. But it's also coming from a guy who has been running 100+ miles/week at the elite level for years, and who therefore, in my eyes at least, *should* be able to run a hard, PR-quality 2mile race and then, after some recovery, run a few more miles at 10k pace and another mile at 2mile race pace.

I'm even inclined to venture that most runners with a solid base, in decent shape, should be able to manage this workout with some modifications: maybe 1 or 2 fewer miles and obviously not as fast, but at comparable race pace/10k speeds.

People are spending too much time focusing on the numbers outside of the context of fitness. A 4:01 in practice just screams for attention; ditto for a 2mile race in 8:07. But if Rupp had run every component of this race/workout combination 10 seconds slower, would you be wondering about doping then? Probably not--but if a 4:11 mile in practice for an 8:17 2miler isn't so surprising, why is a 4:01 mile for an 8:07 2miler?

I'm not coming in on either side of the is-he-or-isn't-he debate, but I am surprised how many runners here, with their knowledge of things like vo2 max and the like, find these numbers all so surprising when they match up with each other so cohesively. In my eyes, that cohesion makes it pretty difficult to argue for doping or against it.