Top Ten Greatest High School Runners (Boys)

no body runs like this anymore! ..especially in HS!...call it crazy, call it guts, I call it insane!

Virgin had a pretty good outdoor season his senior year in high school:

Craig Virgin - 1973

Lebanon HS in Lebanon, IL

4/07 8:50.4 2 mile & 4:17 relay leg

4/24 8:55.6 & 4:16.6 St Clair County meet

4/28 8:59.0 Granite City Invite

5/02 9:24.2 O'Falon Relays

5/03 4:27.9 & 2:02.1 Conference meet

5/05 8:46.6 & 4:11.8 relay Orphan Relays

5/15 8:54.0 Cahokia Invite

5/18 8:53.6 & 4:10.9 District

5/21 8:48.6 & 4:08.5 Meet of Champions

5/25 4:10.0 State meet heat

5/26 8:42.6 & 4:12.2 State finals

6/01 4:05.5 Top 10 meet

6/09 8:40.9 Intl Prep Invite - HS 2 mile record

6/23 13:36.8 3 mile at Ntl Jr AAU

7/04 4:06.1 Freedom Mile (5th)

7/14 8:10.2 3000 for 3rd vs West German Jrs

7/20 8:16.0 3000 win vs Poland Jrs

7/28 13:58.2 5000 win vs USSR Jrs

All-time IL boys hs 1600 list

#4 4:04.1c Craig Virgin '73 - Lebanon. was 4:05.5 mile win at Top Ten meet at Thornridge HS.

Jr, '72 state mile champ in 4:09.2

Sr, state mile 2nd in 4:12.2 after state 2-mile win and 5th in Freedom mile in 4:06.1

All-time IL boys hs 3200 list

#1 8:37.9c Craig Virgin '73 - Lebanon. was 8:40.9 2-mile to win International Prep Invitational (IPI).

Fr, '70 state 2-mile 7th in 9:31.9 for new national freshman and age-14 records.

So, '71 state 2-mile 2nd in 8:57.4 for new national soph & age-15 records & '70 state XC 6th.

Jr, 8:54.2 indoors in '72, state 2-mile win in 8:52.0 for new ntl age-16 record & '71 state XC champ in 13:59 (#4 all-time IL state meet).

Sr, '73 state champ in 8:42.6 for new national age-17 record, 13:58.2 5000 meter win in dual meet vs. USSR Jr team (3rd all-time ntl HS, still 4th) & '72 state XC champ in 13:50 (#1 all-time IL state meet).

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=85355#ixzz2oQ6xDRpC

I agree with this guy - as far as careers go, LV was better than GF.

I think GF had opportunities to put his name in the deeper into record books but chose not to (perhaps if the years were reversed, and GF was chasing an 8:28 record, the story would be different). He could have went to Pre to break 4 or break 8:30 and probably would've accomplished either goal -- but he didn't.

So, as far as rankings go, LV goes above GF.

However, I think if there were a mythical 2M race where all of the HSers ran at Pre, I'd go with:

Webb

...and then LV/GF somewhere around 8:28 each

1. Gerry Lindgren

2. Jim Ryun

3. Lukas Verzbicas

4. Craig Virgin

5. German Fernandez

6. Alan Webb

7. Edward Cheserek

8. Eric Hulst

9. Steve Prefontaine

10. Jeff Nelson

11. Dathan Ritzenhein

12. Galen Rupp

13. Rudy Chapa

14. Rich Kimball

15. Marty Liquori

16. Thom Hunt

17. Ryan Hall

18. Ralph Serna

19. Chris Derrick

Jeff Nelson isn't getting much love on here either. He had the 2 mile record for 30 something years, and nearly beat Lindgren's indoor 2Mile record. He also beat Steve Cram in World XC in 79.

is that list a joke? or u seriously don't think Webb was ** at the very least** the greatest in his era / since ryun/lindgren?

In order of distance: Granville (800), Ryun, Liquori, Webb (mile), Prefontaine, Nelson, Fernandez (2M) , Lindgren, Rupp (5k), Chapa (10k)

1) Whoever said a few pages back that this isn't a great thread is crazy. It's full of widely varied opinions, many (but not all) backed up by a ton of great info and stats, and has (almost) none of the name calling and other insults all too common on these boards anymore.

2) While all the stats and the debates about the relative weight of each stat are obviously important (and fascinating to read), I think there has been too little discussion of some of the less tangible factors. I realize this is a more difficult/challenging area than comparing times and titles. But that doesn't lessen the importance of these factors or the need to bring them into this kind of discussion and debate.

Having said that...

3) It has been mentioned only very briefly that there was a huge variance in how often these guys raced. That is a MAJOR factor and just cannot be ignored in any discussion of the "greatest high school runners." You simply cannot just compare times and count titles without looking at all the factors that contributed to them. The debate is about who the "greatest runners" were/are. It's not just who ran the fastest times. No one who understands our sport, either from a racing or training perspective, would contend that a relatively small number of carefully selected meets and races is an equivalent opportunity/challenge to the demands of racing every week, let alone multiple meets/events. This is NOT a subjective statement designed to favor one runner over another. But running one or even two cross country races every week, or two or three track races every week, clearly makes it more difficult to maximize training benefits and run fast times. For the vast majority of high school runners now, and all runners "back in the day" that is/was the norm. This absolutely must be taken into consideration when comparing achievements in that context to those accomplished in a few targeted races separated by much longer blocks of training and optimal recovery.

(There are obviously plenty of other less tangible factors as well, but let's focus on this one for now.)

What does everyone think?

Not sure why Prefontaine is in the top 10. He was the second fastest high school two miler behind Lindgren's 8:40. Prior to graduating from high school, he broke nine minutes for two miles ONCE! He was the second fastest high school miler his senior year and the second fastest HS 5000 meter runner, again after Lindgren. He really only ran two outstanding races prior to starting university.

This is why coach d3 -

He attended Marshfield High School, where he set a national high school record in the two-mile race and broke 19 national high school records in track.

1) No, it doesn't. People say some older runners are better than their time indicates because of differences in track surfaces. This applies to the pre '70s era. You wouldn't say Salazar was from the same era as Lukas.

2) Idiot. No. Verzbicas had a personal rabbit and competition, Fernandez ran solo with zero competition.

3) Verzbicas had a personal rabbit and competition, Fernandez ran solo with zero competition.

5) How did he have every opportunity to run a 5k race? How many track 5ks are there for HS kids? He was from california and didn't run indoors. He then ran nike outdoor nationals and ran a solo national record. If you want to compare cross country times, okay. German ran 14'24 on a 5k cross course. California state record.

6) Idiot. Way to ignore my first point: National track titles mean little in high school. They are not analogous to NCAAs or USA nationals. German never even ran at indoor nationals. He was from california.

German was also 17 when he did all of this. Lukas was 18. When German was the same age as Lukas he set a world junior record for the mile indoors. He also won NCAAs at 1500m. He also set a junior national record at 5000m. Maybe Lukas could have done this if he hadn't folded after 2 cross races.

I really didn't put Webb up very high because he wasn't the undisputed best of his generation. Sure he was a beast at the 1500/mile, but he couldn't touch Ritz in Cross and probably not in the 2 mile. But by virtue of him having indoor and outdoor records in the 1500/mile I put him higher than Ritz. Also, Pre should be lower on my list.

Since Pre was never the fastest high schooler overall at any distance, he should not make the list. He was never faster than second best at 3000, 2 miles and 5000.

blargh wrote:

I really didn't put Webb up very high because he wasn't the undisputed best of his generation. Sure he was a beast at the 1500/mile, but he couldn't touch Ritz in Cross and probably not in the 2 mile. But by virtue of him having indoor and outdoor records in the 1500/mile I put him higher than Ritz. Also, Pre should be lower on my list.

coach d3 wrote:

Since Pre was never the fastest high schooler overall at any distance, he should not make the list. He was never faster than second best at 3000, 2 miles and 5000.

blargh wrote:

I really didn't put Webb up very high because he wasn't the undisputed best of his generation. Sure he was a beast at the 1500/mile, but he couldn't touch Ritz in Cross and probably not in the 2 mile. But by virtue of him having indoor and outdoor records in the 1500/mile I put him higher than Ritz. Also, Pre should be lower on my list.

Pre did run 8:08 for 3000 enroute to 13:52 for 5000. Only Gerry Lindgren would have run faster for 3000 in his indoor 8:40 record. Of course Pre belongs on this list. You would have to be an idiot to not put him on it.

He also finished third in the AAU National 3 mile his senior year.

If anyone mentioned doesn't belong on this list it is Galen Rupp. He did run 13:37 in Europe in a race he wasn't even in the top 5, but his other HS record attempts in perfect settings were 8:03 for 3000 and 29:30 for 10,000. The 8:03 was a record but only worth about 8:42 for two miles.

One would have to be beyond an idiot to leave Rupp off. Fastest US high schooler ever at the time for 2000, 3000 and 5000. Too, he was and still is the fourth fastest at 10000 in his only attempt as a high schooler (29:09, not 29:30).BTW, he went through 3200 in his 13:37 5000 in 8:39, so ~8:42 for two miles.

George Atlas wrote:

coach d3 wrote:

Since Pre was never the fastest high schooler overall at any distance, he should not make the list. He was never faster than second best at 3000, 2 miles and 5000.

Pre did run 8:08 for 3000 enroute to 13:52 for 5000. Only Gerry Lindgren would have run faster for 3000 in his indoor 8:40 record. Of course Pre belongs on this list. You would have to be an idiot to not put him on it.

He also finished third in the AAU National 3 mile his senior year.

If anyone mentioned doesn't belong on this list it is Galen Rupp. He did run 13:37 in Europe in a race he wasn't even in the top 5, but his other HS record attempts in perfect settings were 8:03 for 3000 and 29:30 for 10,000. The 8:03 was a record but only worth about 8:42 for two miles.

Where on this list should Cheserek be placed in relation to Alan Webb? Who is better? And I don't want to hear about race or age. It really shouldn't factor into this discussion. They both obviously were the best in their events in their years, but they did get beat when they went to other distances. Ritz trounced Webb in Cross and many people beat Cheserek in the mile. But in their best event they were unbeatable in High School.

I agree that speculation can be overdone, but there is no other way to compare runners from different eras when the old-timers ran on different surfaces against different competition in different meets. Like another poster said, it is pointless to compare national championships because there were none back in the day. I do like the using how many senior teams made in high school as a metric though.

I was not the one speculating in the website I quoted. I was introducing some food for thought/stirring the pot, definitely not trying to take this discussion into Ventolin territory. If Ventolin wants to comment on what his calculator thinks Lindgren could run for 2 miles based off his 13:44.0/4:01.5 marks I do think it would be interesting. Or whether a healthy Lindgren actually had a shot in that Tokyo 10k.

I personally think people give HS Ryun the upper hand over HS Lindgren because the mile was/is the glory event of track and field in America, not because his performances were intrinsically better. Both were so much better than anyone else their age, and both were close to/beating the best in the world (Ryun over Snell, Lindgren over Mills at the OT and the Russians at the US-USSR meet). Lindgren also had the range from the mile - 10k, and Ryun only really ran the mile (the 880/800 WR came the next year).

Can we talk about Bruce Kidd? Just because he's Canadian (his age was comparable) doesn't make him any less good as a teenager.

Footnote: Ryun was not .9 seconds away from the mile WR in high school. Ryun ran 3:55.3 on 6/27/65. Jazy had run 3:53.6 on 6/9/65. 3:55.3 - 3:53.6 = 1.7s

Convert Ryuns 1500m and compare it to Snells record. When you compare Ryun and Lindgren they are of the same era. I am not saying Lindgren didn't have WR potential but it was no better than Ryuns. And yes we forget how good he was in HS. Distance running progress a lot over the next 4 years as Clarke and company lopped another 20s off the 5k (and like 35s off the 10k) , and Lindgren didn't really keep up. Throw in he was even more screwed than Ryun by Mexico city and he fades away.If you don't think that future performance colors our opions, how often has Tim Danielson been mentioned?

Yeah, Tim Danielson straight up murdered someone. But he was good at running.

3:55 is much better than 13:44, not because the mile was "glory" event -- it's because his time is 'better'

That was post high school:)Personally I don't think Rupp gets enough love. That 13:37 is arguably the best distance performance ever (webbs mile is slightly better) and he has a solid 3k time to back it up. On the other hand he lost foot locker. If you rate footlocker highly, it is hard to give GF and rupp a lot of love.On the other hand if Chapa and Hulst had to run footlocker there is a very good chance that neither of them would have titles. During there years of great running (those 8:45s, 28:32, world xc jr championship,...) there were 3-5 guys who could win those races (Hulst, Chapa, Serna, Hunt, McChesney and Salazar when you look at their senior/junior years. That is ton of talent).

blargh wrote:

Yeah, Tim Danielson straight up murdered someone. But he was good at running.