If you were Shannon Rowbury would you let Al Sal change your running form?

tired of running form morons wrote:

Jack Daniels sent videos of elite runners to 20 top coaches and asked them to rate them according to running economy. The coaches answers were all over the place. There was no correlation between the measured running economy (in terms of oxygen use at submaximal paces) and running form.

That doesn't prevent tons of internet idiots to blabber about form.

I wonder how much slower Prisca Jeptoo would run after a year with Sleazy Sal's running form program.

That speaks more to the knowledge of the "top coaches" than it does to the mechanics. I would add, and this is directly from the mouth of Jack Daniels at a clinic I attended where he spoke, "oxygen use is not the be-all end-all measure of efficiency."

You could be doing more work and expending more energy with different form, but be better a proportionately higher output relative to that expended energy and be running much faster.

If you don't like Shannon Rowbury then go back to Iran where Europeans originally migrated from after the Ice Age.

thinkingman wrote:

or...the issue could be the measurement.

What is running economy based on.

Think about it for a minute before you critique.

He did think about it. What proof is there that the direction your thumbs are pointed in has any effect on your efficiency?

She wants to get sub-2 or sub-4 or sub-15, and seems willing to take a risk to do so. Probably aware of the potential down side of moving to NOP.

Now or Never wrote:

If you don't like Shannon Rowbury then go back to Iran where Europeans originally migrated from after the Ice Age.

Maybe you are not serious, but I started this thread because I am a big fan of Rowbury and I am concerned about her getting injured like Ritz if she changes her form. I also think Coach Cook has as good a coaching resume as Salazar and I question whether Salazar has some special insight into how to improve her form that Cook didn't have.

This is a good story about Ritz and the changes to his form. Ritz has since been healthy for a while, so maybe the changes worked and he's come out the other side a better runner, or maybe they gave up trying to change him, but the process would be concerning if it were me.

Neigh neigh neigh wrote:

This is a good story about Ritz and the changes to his form. Ritz has since been healthy for a while, so maybe the changes worked and he's come out the other side a better runner, or maybe they gave up trying to change him, but the process would be concerning if it were me.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/11/08/101108fa_fact_kahn?currentPage=all

And it would be concerning to me if I were the Cains, and Salazar IS trying to change Mary Cain's form. Starting to look like a coach's obsessive-compulsive behavior that is getting out of control. Fortunately for Michael Johnson, he had a coach wise enough not to touch form "errors" that didn't need to be "fixed".

Yeah, I could have learned to run like everybody else...and I'd be a second slower like everybody else.

--Michael Johnson

To Be Disclosed wrote:

That's my point. Beyond a certain range of motion/flexibility and you are wasting energy because the muscles don't spring back or stay aligned passively with as little energy.

Haile Gebrselassie stretches all the time.

I can do a bridge too, doesn't mean my legs are flexible.

Haile Gebrselassie run all the time too. Which tightens the muscles.

Bump. My concern as well.Change is probably good for her and training regularly with a team etc might give her the bump she needs.But she's getting older and risk of injury increases. Cook did a great job of improving her without injuring her, he's obsessed with keeping his runners healthy. I wonder if some of this is just AlSal marking his territory. But I wish her well.

Neigh neigh neigh wrote:

Maybe you are not serious, but I started this thread because I am a big fan of Rowbury and I am concerned about her getting injured like Ritz if she changes her form. I also think Coach Cook has as good a coaching resume as Salazar and I question whether Salazar has some special insight into how to improve her form that Cook didn't have.

It has worked for others.

korben wrote:

It has worked for others.

So what are Salazar's success stories with changing people's form? I don't remember seeing stories about that - just Ritz's problems, whatever the problem was with Webb, and the stuff with Mary Cain which is apparently an experiment in progress.

Fixitive wrote:

What is the basis for saying these things? "Hands are being carried too low" compared to whom? Compared to someone with an identical build who is faster? Who is that person? Is this faster person faster because their hands are being carried higher? On what basis can anyone say hand height makes this hypothetical other person faster?

And the same questions for elbow angle, etc, etc.

I hear coaches say these kinds of things, but they seem to back them up by appealing to some sort of coach's intuition. Is there something more there?

That's a fair question to ask, and I'm glad you did as it made me think about it. The answer that pops in my head is that it's on the basis of physics.

If doping wasn't so prevalent it would be much more obvious what sort of form is needed to run with the fastest in the world. Instead, you get donkeys like Alptekin and her compatriot winning gold and silver medals ahead of the true thoroughbreds and it appears as if arm carriage is completely irrelevant. At least Bulut had proper foot height on the return phase, and Alptekin's foot height on the return phase was still a lot better than the women in Ma's Army of the 90's. That crew was like a bunch of supercharged Ford Pintos beating Porsches.

Maybe a bit of a tangent, but Mary Cain had better form as a freshman in high school than Shannon Rowbury did in the Olympics. Much has been made about Cain's supposed bad form, but she looked great when breaking the national freshman 1500m record a few years back.

(footage is rough, need to watch it in slow motion)

Granted, she looked even better winning NY state champs on 3/3/12

Sure, her arms swing a bit past centerline because her torso is rotating a little more than necessary, but overall she has very little to "correct". Rowbury on the other hand has a lot more to gain from learning different mechanics.

That might sound crazy to say Cain looks a lot better than Rowbury because the latter looks so much more composed and less gangly, but when that composure is through a path that is not completely efficient (via a physics standpoint) then it's of no use. Better to move through the more efficient path less fluidly, a la Cain.

You're confusing the word 'physics' with 'aesthetics'

Freudian Slip? wrote:

To Be Disclosed wrote:- General static flexibility is too high; being able to do the splits and all sorts of otherwise-great yoga postures is not efficient. The desired muscle tension in the sagittal plane is being lost with too much flexibility in the coronal plane.

She's pretty darned flexible.

http://www.all-athletics.com/files/imagecache/photos_big_nowm/photos/shannon_rowbury_zurich_09_training.jpg

I've heard people say that good runners who try to do yoga are really stiff, but I've also heard people swear by yoga as a way of avoiding injuries. Anything objective on this?

hot

Yes, it does look like MJ is leaning his head BACK. Steve Prefontain ran with his head back too. The fact is when you move your head back your chest, hips and legs go FORWARD (exactly what they should do)! In my opinion everyone should at least try running and walking with their head leaning back. It is a much more relaxed easy and with practice fast way to run.

Neigh neigh neigh wrote:

So what are Salazar's success stories with changing people's form?

Look up some videos of Mo Farah before and after he started working with Sleazy Sal. There's a startling difference.

Neigh neigh neigh wrote:

Salazar is known to tinker with his athletes’ running form. He says Rowbury “does things very well,” but “there are a few biomechanical things she can improve upon and we believe that she has room to grow stronger aerobically and be a bit speedier than she already is over the last lap.” He adds, “We'll progress Shannon slowly and look for her to be running quite well by the time the championship indoor season rolls around.”

Does Al Sal have any success stories with improving form or just injury stories like Ritz?

He had Mary Cain in that horseback riding harness. Same for Rowbury?

Hey, Sal is an original and can think outside the box.

I doubt that goofy harness contraption was worn by Mary for more than a week. Why Cain's parents put up with him is beyond me. She ran like a clown at the WC and got to the final in spite of him. Maybe Mary Cain will wise up and grow up in college.