Tony Reavis 'Quote Of Day' on Kenyan 26.2 success is BS.

Early childhood development matters a lot, which is why it's no surprise that guys like Hall and Ritz are the best we have. Hall grew up in altitude. Ritz moved to altitude while still a teenager. Both have tiny ankles and low mass. They are not Kenyan, but even in America they were able to grow up in a pretty similar way. In Kenya almost all of the kids are bound to be born in altitude and stay pretty lean. They have a lot in their favor, because in America very few people live at altitude and eating healthy takes purposeful effort.

Still, the USA is a bigger country than Kenya. More people could succeed in running if they care to do so. But why should they care? Running is one of the least lucrative paths to financial success in America and it often means more discipline in lifestyle (as Toni argues) than any other American occupation/lifestyle demands, so what incentive does an American have to excel in running?

The United States has 313 million people and maybe a handful of men and women 10k-marathon runners who can even make a claim to a possible medal at the Olympics. Those top five earn more money than an upper middle class salary, but every other runner who is not them makes less.

Kenya has 43 million people, dozens who have a claim to be a possible medal threat, and even for the second tier of elites it is an upper class salary if they can win any races outside of their country.

Clearly Kenyans have much more reason to care. They can provide a better life by running well. In America winning $50k a year off racing will barely make you middle class. In Kenya you can buy a house, send your kids to private schools, and hire help to watch over your home with that same money.

Whatever you have to say about priorities its clear in America that many successful men and women put work above their family. It's also clear that many class acts keep their family important while still being amazing in their chosen career path. There's just so little reason for any American to pick running as a career option.

As for the original post for ttc, what would you suppose the contrary would be for the Kenyans?

G. Mutai was working for an electric company, was fired, had no income, THEN started to focus on running again.

After his victories and winnings, he can now support his whole family (brothers and sisters included) and take care of all future financial problems. Can you blame him for wanting to focus purely on training? Do you think his family has issues with this?

As for the group training mentality, many top Kenyan athletes have egos that allow for this type of training.

Kimetto allows G.Mutai to have the victory at Berlin to win WMM

G.Mutai claims Kimetto's Chicago win was a "victory for all of us" because he found Kimetto's talent

Kipsang provides support for other athletes to help him train for the marathon WR

They believe in the power of the group - having strength in numbers.

Also, the type of wealth these athletes have in comparison to our top guys makes a much bigger difference. $500k for WMM would go much farther in Kenya than in US. These guys incomes would mimic top boxers in the US ($10-15M per fight). So opening up a gym and inviting young fighters would make sense to stay hungry.

Shoebacca wrote:

Kenya has 43 million people, dozens who have a claim to be a possible medal threat, and even for the second tier of elites it is an upper class salary if they can win any races outside of their country.

But their success is more or less limited to a single ethnic group of those 43 million.

I never said anything about, or argued againt your points here.

[quote]ttc wrote:

I'm not talking the full article- just the Quote Of The Day part.

Talk about the training, group setting, etc... But not going home, not seeing the family to instead shack up with other runners does not fly as a reason for running fast. In fact, it makes them less of a man or woman doing so.

I did not agree with your position ttc -

So I answered:

As for the original post for ttc, what would you suppose the contrary would be for the Kenyans?

G. Mutai was working for an electric company, was fired, had no income, THEN started to focus on running again.

After his victories and winnings, he can now support his whole family (brothers and sisters included) and take care of all future financial problems. Can you blame him for wanting to focus purely on training? Do you think his family has issues with this?

-Meaning if G.Mutai needs to leave his family to fully focus on training, then he can take care of his family. He would be MORE of a man than less, making a sacrifice in order to be a provider for years to come.

rojo wrote:

3) The real answer comes in his third to last paragraph:

Toni Reaviswrote:

And that is totally setting aside the question of pure talent.

Kimetto just started training in 2010.

4) Memo to everyone, read this post from our friends at the Science of Sports:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/03/10000-hours-vs-training-debate/

or if you have more time, this book by my friend David Epstein:

- go read Sports Gene.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591845114/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1591845114&linkCode=as2&tag=letsruncom

5) I just laugh when everyone says, "What are the Kenyans doing better than us?" If anything, I think they should be doing better than they are. They aren't nearly as dominant at 1500/10,000 in global champs as they should be.

The genetics excuse is just an easy out for lazy Americans. LR can keep saying everything is about genetics, but that's just them making themselves feel better.

With that said, the old quote "you can't coach tall" is true and can be used in the genetics discussion, but running isn't football or basketball. It's a simple sport. Sure some people are able to push through more pain than others and natural talent does play a part, but that's no excuse for why Kenyans are better distance runners.

They just work harder, period!! We have all seen the proof in books and articles for years about workouts that Kenyans do that no Americans could ever have a prayer of doing. That's not called genetics, it's called working hard and staying injury free for years and years.

umm...

This monastic -ignore the family/ train with a group has worked wonder for Mo Farah. (and to a lesser extent Rupp)

So, yeah, it can work.

I think there is something to the monastic lifestyle. I have kids. I love them like crazy, but they wear me out. Even an hour or two of playing with them, I am worn out. And I certainly remember my days as a single guy and how much energy it took to chase girls/keep a girlfriend happy. When you are trying to take your body to the outer limits of human endurance, energy spent on family/girlfriends, etc. matters. Probably not the difference between 2:10 and 2:03, but it must make some difference.

But, I think the biggest difference is having the huge training group. It is undeniable that you will run faster and harder when you are with a group of runners than when you are alone. I had been training as a lone wolf for the past few years and just started running with a group for workouts. It is a night and day difference. I will push myself much harder trying to stay with or be ahead of the group than I will by myself. I have been doing long runs with some 2:20-30 guys (I am usually upper 2:40s). I can usually get into a groove and do a bunch of 6:30-40s on long runs. Running with the fast guys, I am doing 6:10-20s instead and feeling like the same effort level. Running is at the end of the day a very human endeavor. Breaking it down into 1/4 mi splits, HR monitors, etc. only goes so far. Putting yourself in a group of fast guys and going for it is really the way to become the best you can be.

Re: my point on leaving the family, I was talking about Reavis bringing up a Kenyan ***living with runners, only a few km away from home***, & mostly staying away from family -> ridiculous. I also did acknowledge on my post that maybe a good training group makes it necessary to be away. But Reavis is the one bringing up the former example.

If Reavis focused on the runners who traveled far from the family & therefore needed to live near training- that's different. It's still a risky, but more understandable decision. However, living away from family & seeing them sparingly when a few km's away, is ridiculous. Anyone arguing that part is just looking to argue.

It seems to me like Reavis is talking about balance, and isn't that something every runner struggles with?

I'm not anywhere close to an elite (or even sub-elite) level runner, but I'm proud of the times I can run and the effort/training it takes for me to run them. I work hard at running, but I still wonder where I could be if I dedicated myself even more.

Having said that, there's obviously a price for that dedication. I've got a wife and kids that I love, a job I enjoy, and friends I like hanging out with. More time training means less of something else in my life. Everyone's got to find that point for themselves.

So while it's easy to look at Hall or Ritz and say they should be more dedicated...would you want the life that Reavis describes for the Kenyans/Ethiopians? I'll take my current PRs, kids sporting events, and a beer with friends every now and again...

Dedication is obviously critical. But Reavis pointing to a Kenyan who moved a few km's away from his family has nothing to do with dedication. There's sacrifice... & there's dumb, ineffective sacrifice. Bunking up with runners over yonder & avoiding loved ones close by is ridiculous.

Well since you are "sure"...

The real answer is that it's complicated. But for sure, it is a combo of genetics and lifestyle, just as it is here.

If US wants the world class performances in marathon, we need to find and motivate the best athletes and attract them to our sport. Where are the best athletes and potential world class runners? In other professional sports or doing other things with their time.

Eliminate the NFL, MLB, the NBA. Provide life changing money for making US Olympic Teams and winning races. Within 10 years, we'd be winning gold medals and setting world records in the marathon.

"Training is the realization of genetic potential" quoted from Science of Sports says it all.

There is a genetic cap on performance , some are better than others and if trained properly they will flourish and reach their genetic potential. Group training shows a benefit , mexicans did this in their heyday , africans are doing it now , we saw a glimmer back in the day with the greater GBTC boys. Listen to the comments of the african elites pre and post race , "so and so" has looked great in training , he has been killing us. Read between the lines these elites are pushing each other to training limits. Why the race down to the finish as we have seen in several recent elite marathons at record pace.

The one off singular "on my own" training is hard over a longer period of time , ask anyone who is doing or has done it.

Africans slowed dominance in track mid and long distance events is not hard to figure out , there is little or no money there. Road racing and marathoning is lucrative and available year round.

The africans group formula that has created the global standard for marathoning is something all could learn from.

The Africans are indeed genetically different. How do the American marathoners stack up to the rest of the world's marathoners not counting the Africans?

This reminds me of the Russian training they did in the 70-80's when they were pumping drugs in their athletes like Coca Puffs. They would take all their athletes and put them through ridiculous amounts of training and intensities, many were injured and careers ruined. Those that could handle it, ended up being amazing. It was natural selection coaching. Set the plan, if you don't make it through, you won't excel and you will be broken.

That is not coaching. Few will make it out of this model, albeit those that do, will be crazy good. It only works if the ants come in droves.

I give you 100% score on this one. I may add, the Kenyans train in groups because they like helping one another, helps to encourage and motivate and helps gauge performance. Kenyans have a time trial often, and it is better to do it in a group than doing by yourself. Kimmeto might have not raced before 2010 but the millage and time trials in Kenya is what propel him to sub 2:04.

This is probably similar to why the United States has all of the best football players in the world. Because the US has superior genes. It couldn't have anything to do with what sports are popular in certain countries. Let's not forget that had Galen Rupp's running talent never been recognized by his soccer coach, he never would have become a runner in the first place.

JD Bob wrote:

Eliminate the NFL, MLB, the NBA. Provide life changing money for making US Olympic Teams and winning races. Within 10 years, we'd be winning gold medals and setting world records in the marathon.

We don't have to eliminate anything. Do you think if there was no NFL that RG3, for instance, would become a marathon runner instead? He wouldn't be a very good one.

What we need to do is expand our cultural idea of what an athlete is. Our country is so infatuated with football and basketball, which are primarily explosive, fast-twitch oriented sports, that most people seem to think that muscular, explosive-type athletes are the only type of athletes there are (Coach D seems to be one of these). I firmly believe that by the time high school rolls around, a large number of kids who could be great distance runners have already decided that sports just isn't their thing, because they aren't interested in or aren't good at the mainstream ball sports.

My junior year of high school, a kid got cut from the golf team and came out for cross country because he really wanted to do a fall sport. By the end of the year he was our number one guy, and he'd never run consistently before. How many other kids like him were in my school of 1000 people, but they never tried running? How many kids nationwide?

None of that will guarantee that we would beat the Kenyans and Ethiopians, but if we had 500 or 5000 guys like Ritz and Hall training for the marathon instead of 5, I'm pretty confident that we'd start seeing more fast times and high finishes.