He went through all kinds of testing with Gatorade! They came up with a formula based on his sweat. He looks almost too thin. Have to wonder if he is depleted before he starts. In his flotrack interview he calls Cento fat. Maybe if he trained 5 lbs heavier he could run 150 miles a week. Just a thought.
We are seeing guys who are very fast at shorter distances, dedicate themselves solely to the marathon and half-marathon. These guys are now not trying to make a team in the 5k or 10k. They are using that time frame to solely train for the marathon.
There used to be a time not that long ago, that Kenyans bemoaned their poor performance in the marathon compared to track races. It's interesting how quickly times have changed. I think it took a few Kenyans trying the Japanese high mileage systems and having success, to change the paradigm in Kenya regarding training for the marathon. The Kenyans always had the speed component in their training. They have added the mileage component to it without lowering the speed component.
To be a good marathoner these days, requires high mileage and speed. It's not one or the other. It's both. One has to be able to run sub 4 miles in practice and be ready to run long tempos at race pace in practice, ex 60 to 90 mins at marathon race, or 30 to 40 mins at half marathon pace. But more importantly, be willing to give the body sufficient rest from these longer tempo runs.
It takes real sacrifice, almost hermit like living, to partially recover sufficiently from these insane long tempo runs. And no one recovers 100%. So being able to go back out there with 70 -90% recovery seems to a required skill set.
Yea, you're "right".
Turning age 17 automatically makes one a 4:01 miler.
Running 100 mpw didn't matter.
From what I read of the Kenyans' marathon training, it seems to me that most of them are getting to 150 mpw or more and a good many have runs of longer than the marathon distance. This also has been the case with the Japanese for years so I think it might be safe to say that most people who hope to be among the world's best marathoners need to do that sort of volume.
The big question that arises then is whether that's possible or wise for everyone to do. I tend to think, as someone else posted, that those sorts of volumes are attainable for the vast majority of runners who are in their primes providing they give themselves enough time to build to it. But it can take a long time. It took me three years to get from about 80 a week to 140-150 and at times I did nothing but build up my distances. There was no consistent faster running at all, though I would run hard when I felt up to it.
And maybe here's where the "problem" lies for western runners. I'm not sure how many of today's runners would want to spend that length of time building up their miles and "taking time away" from "quality" training. And that makes a kind of sense. There's money to be won, shoe contracts to attract, national teams to be made and if doing those things now (or close to now) on 100 or so a week is likely or possible, does it make sense to compromise your chances for the possible but definitely uncertain prospect of becoming one of the very top marathoners in the world in 2/3 years? What if you don't build those miles properly and end up with major stretches of injury troubles? So it's very possible that the 100 mpw bird in hand seems a better thing to go for than the 150 mpw one in the bush.
But if you're a promising Japanese runner who has a lifetime job with the company that sponsors your team there's less to lose by going all out to reach the absolute top and coming up short. You still have your job. If you're a Kenyan and there are dozens of guys who are faster than you are you may have no choice but to try to match or exceed what those dozens are doing.
"...What if you don't build those miles properly and end up with major stretches of injury troubles? So it's very possible that the 100 mpw bird in hand seems a better thing to go for than the 150 mpw one in the bush..."
_______________________________________
Anything done improperly can be negative.
And the "Bird In The Hand" saying can be used against most all methods of progress.
Ritz & others usually bonk with ***25%*** of the race to go. A lot of elite 26.2'ers running more mpw than our elites. Not many (any?) running less. If increasing that many miles is an issue, than like I said- at least get the long run longer than underdistance. There's a strength issue, & to deny is being blind or stubborn.
The bird in the hand is a very apt metaphor here. Every marathon Ritz runs is a big payday whether he goes 2:08 or 2:12; just a matter of degree. So he has to weigh what he has to gain -- placing top 3 in a major would be great for his career -- vs. the prospect of missing a six figure payday that probably represents half his yearly income.
runfearless wrote:
And I would add that until you try high mileage doing ALL the right things, you can't say "people get hurt with volume"--that's "COMPLETE BS". You get the pace right, form right, nutrition and sleep right, you can do it, AND unless you've done that and made sure all those factors are close to perfect you can't say bs.
I think there are big differences in the amount of mileage people can handle. Don't know much about guys, but I know girls who get too skinny when they do high mileage. Know an elite woman who doesn't do more than 50mpw because when she goes higher, she loses too much weight and breaks down. I am not naturally skinny and I'd be slow as balls on 50mpw, but I've been gradually adding mileage and paying attention to all of the small things and I think I'll be at 100mpw in a few years.
But injury still happens. And some people are more resilient than others. The ability to withstand difficult training without breaking down is one facet of talent. Nutrition, sleep, taking easy runs easy, form, range of motion, strength training for injury prevention - those things all help, but you can do all of those things and still be SOL and get hurt. And that will happen more to some people than others.
With that said I think for some reason a lot of American dudes have this phobia of going over 100mpw, like it's this magic number above which they're going to break down and die, which is kind of silly and arbitrary.
Let Us Run wrote:
The bird in the hand is a very apt metaphor here. Every marathon Ritz runs is a big payday whether he goes 2:08 or 2:12; just a matter of degree. So he has to weigh what he has to gain -- placing top 3 in a major would be great for his career -- vs. the prospect of missing a six figure payday that probably represents half his yearly income.
I'm not suggesting Ritz to do anything many others haven't. I'm suggesting his bonking with 25% of the race still to go means he, Teg & others need more strength.
I agree with you that there's a strength issue here and if you're "outstrengthed" by guys running 50 miles a week more than you are you should be thinking of running as much as they are IF BEATING THEM IS YOUR PRIME GOAL. In the world of professional sports though, earning money is the prime goal and sometimes athletes will choose the security of more attainable results over the risk of going for it all and coming up empty.
I also agree with you that most people are capable of running a lot more mileage than they do run and generally of benefitting from it. But everyone also will eventually pass the point of diminishing returns and find that the higher miles are useless or harmful and not everyone reaches that point at the same weekly mileage. So while it may be that 150 or more mpw is the correct volume for runners aspiring to win major marathons it may also be that 150 or more mpw is not the correct volume for every runner. Those in the latter group may not be able to win major marathons yet still place well and do well financially, which I believe is the true goal of a professional athlete.
To some extent, the strength issue can be addressed by racing marathons repeatedly. You get better at most things when you do them more often and perhaps by doing the overdistance run(s) that you mention. But generally, I'm agreeing with you. As long as Kenyans are running 150 or more miles a week it's going to be very hard for people maxing out at 100-110 to beat them at marathons.
Looks like Ritz was puttting in about 115+ under Hudson, and I remember him doing some monster progression runs, like 20 miles averaging 4:54 pace or something similar. I don't think he was injured much under Hudson, though he never popped a great marathon (I think he had 2:07 in him in 2009 but went out way too fast) . However, he built a fantastic base to prepare him for his breakthrough 2009 track season, culminating in his half-marathon bronze. The only way Ritz gets in 140-150 mpw, is if he does 25% of it in the pool.
http://dathanritzenhein.competitor.com/2010/01/16/different-training/
xenonscreams wrote:
I think there are big differences in the amount of mileage people can handle. Don't know much about guys, but I know girls who get too skinny when they do high mileage. Know an elite woman who doesn't do more than 50mpw because when she goes higher, she loses too much weight and breaks down. I am not naturally skinny and I'd be slow as balls on 50mpw, but I've been gradually adding mileage and paying attention to all of the small things and I think I'll be at 100mpw in a few years.
She loses weight because she doesn't eat enough. This is a really simple solution and has nothing to do with not being able to handle high mileage or being naturally skinny. It's all about diet. And you wouldn't be slow as balls on 50mpw. If you can't get fast on that, then you're training is wrong. There is no reason to do 100 mpw unless you're a marathoner.
kskk wrote:
xenonscreams wrote:I think there are big differences in the amount of mileage people can handle. Don't know much about guys, but I know girls who get too skinny when they do high mileage. Know an elite woman who doesn't do more than 50mpw because when she goes higher, she loses too much weight and breaks down. I am not naturally skinny and I'd be slow as balls on 50mpw, but I've been gradually adding mileage and paying attention to all of the small things and I think I'll be at 100mpw in a few years.
She loses weight because she doesn't eat enough. This is a really simple solution and has nothing to do with not being able to handle high mileage or being naturally skinny. It's all about diet. And you wouldn't be slow as balls on 50mpw. If you can't get fast on that, then you're training is wrong. There is no reason to do 100 mpw unless you're a marathoner.
Only the supremely talented (bernard Lagat) can get away with 60 mpw. Most elites will need to run at least 80-100, if not more to excel. 120+ for the marathon.
Work on your reading comprehension. But since you like to keep things simple: Run a 100mpw in HS and you will not run a faster mile the rest of your life. Obviously nothing else matters.....
ttc wrote:
Yea, you're "right".
Turning age 17 automatically makes one a 4:01 miler.
Running 100 mpw didn't matter.
Get off the roads for a good deal of your mileage, particularly as you are first building up to a new level, do recovery runs when you need to, and do lots of preventive exercises (eccentric calf drops, step-ups, quad strengthening exercises with ankle weights) as needed, and you'll be much more likely to be able to handle high mileage. It's worked for me at up to 112 mpw and consistently 100, despite getting injured literally every week or two in high school and most of my two more or less 'healthy' years of college running.
But is a guy like Kimetto running 150mpw for an extended period of time? He had a bout of malaria back in July - difficult to imagine he was running this mileage then.
I think 150mpw has its place in the plan but for how long?
The overdistance and hard training runs over 20 miles or more sound as taxing as the race itself. I suppose careful recovery is needed even for these guys.
yyy wrote:
But is a guy like Kimetto running 150mpw for an extended period of time? He had a bout of malaria back in July - difficult to imagine he was running this mileage then.
I think 150mpw has its place in the plan but for how long?
The overdistance and hard training runs over 20 miles or more sound as taxing as the race itself. I suppose careful recovery is needed even for these guys.
No he did the 150 mpw during August or for 6 weeks. The coverage of Chicago said both. Not sure which. His regular training is 110-125. Kimetto trains with Geoffrey Mutai. Mutai does 110-125 mpw depending on what part of training he is in. Kimetto is his training partner. There was a Boston globe article and an old thread on here talking about it if you want to see his training. But note on the runs that say 1hr50min there is a language barrier and Mutai meant 1hr to 50min, but if Kimetto did 150mpw he did 1hr50min on those runs.
If anyone is interested in reading about how Kenyan marathoners actually train, I wrote two articles a while back covering that subject. One of them even includes complete training schedules for Abel Kirui and Moses Mosop.
Analysis of Kirui and Mosop's training schedules:
http://www.runningwritings.com/2012/06/elite-marathoning-with-renato-canova.html
Analysis of Canova's comments on "something new in training," i.e. what is making marathoners so good now:
This may be of particular interest to readers of this thread because it contrasts runners like Martin Lel and Robert Cheruiyot, who run 135-150 mpw, with runners like James Kwambi and Duncan Kibet, who often only do 80-90 miles a week.
asdfaafdafasd wrote:
Work on your reading comprehension. But since you like to keep things simple: Run a 100mpw in HS and you will not run a faster mile the rest of your life. Obviously nothing else matters.....
Why would running 100mpw in high school prevent you from running faster for the rest of your life?
Not all Kenyans train like Kirui and Mosop. Many elite Kenyan runners are self coached. Geoffrey Mutai is self coached, Kimetto is his training partner, Kipsang is self coached, Patrick Makau is self coached. Kipsang does track Tuesday, fartlek Thursday, and long run Saturday and rest day Sunday. Kipsang's format is the "typical" kenyan training format.
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