Why does Nick Symmonds train like this?

Rudishaaa wrote:

Please post the training log on here.

No. If you want it go buy it. It is extremely cheap.

I'm not paying for that. I could pay for DVD's but why would I when I can watch them at SolarMovie for free?

It would hep a bit to post some workouts from the middle and late in the racing season to see his progression scheduled in the workouts. 3 workouts in November doesn't show a good picture of the training schedule and ideas behind what he is doing.

SlowFatMaster wrote:

Karma Police:

When you write "1k reps...below lactic threshold" do you mean faster or slower than lactic threshold?

I think he means lactate at less than 4mmol, preferably around 3.5

Thats what all the 1500m+ guys I know operate with when they do treshold workouts.

Runner85 wrote:

It would hep a bit to post some workouts from the middle and late in the racing season to see his progression scheduled in the workouts. 3 workouts in November doesn't show a good picture of the training schedule and ideas behind what he is doing.

Its one year of a training log. I'm not going to copy all that in here.

I can post some workouts from racing season tomorrow, but wasn't really trying to discuss in-season training.

SlowFatMaster wrote:

Karma Police:

When you write "1k reps...below lactic threshold" do you mean faster or slower than lactic threshold?

Sorry - slower. I mean below threshold speed. Supposed to be an aerobic workout, minimal anaerobic work.

young master wrote:

Isn't this pretty normal Vigil-style training?

(e.g. Here's Brenda Martinez doing 8x1000 in around 3:00 each, with 3:00 rest.)

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/249744-Workout-Wednesday-Season-7/video/712300-B-Martinez-Project-4

Barakus Obama wrote:

Dude, this is close to season and real hard 1ks, their on average as fast or faster than what symmonds runs his long intervals in! Can't be compared.

You're right. The OP didn't give the times for Symmonds's intervals until way into the thread.

Nonetheless, I suspect that he does 1k splits faster but with similar rest as the pre-season goes on. Lagat (James Li) uses a similar principle. (I think there is a Flotrack video of Lagat doing 600s in 1:45 or something, saying that in a few months he'll be sub-1:30 for the same workout.)

Rudishaaa wrote:

I'm not paying for that. I could pay for DVD's but why would I when I can watch them at SolarMovie for free?

Why not? You obviously want to see it, you just said so.

So....

Up until racing season, an 800/1500 guy is trying to do nearly the same thing as a 5000/10000 guy --teach his body to move more oxygen around. however, the 8/15 guy needs to do so in the context of always incorporating his anaerobic system--i mean you are never purely aerobic or even mostly aerobic like you are in the 5 or 10, so you drill your 5x1mile or 7-8x1k a little harder on cutdown times and lengthen out the recovery so you can repeat and teach your muscles to output that level of power. 5k guys need to feel comfortable for 9 laps, 1500m guys go out in 56....so you might be doing the same workout (5xmile) but you are organizing the times and recoveries different for middle distance vs distance.

Nick is just an alltime 1 in a billion talent. The rule of thumb is you take your max 400 time, subtract 4 seconds and that is your first 400m of an 800m. if you are in incredible shape perhaps you come back 2 seconds slower in the second lap...so that your 800m is at average 5 second slower than your 400m. That is a rare bread that can even do that. Nick does his max 400m plus 4 secondsx2. 47 400 and 51.4 average 800m.....he might have one of the biggest anaerobic systems the world has ever seen. Seb Coe was 46.5 400 and 50.8 average 800 pace.....Rudisha 45 and 50.4.....

That power output for 100 seconds is just incredible, and you can see why you would tilt your strength workout to slightly more rest, with slightly more speed on the pace.....

oldsub4:

OK, but on a non-cutdown day, Gags (at the 2013 Distance Summit at High Point) stressed jogging recoveries for what he referred to as strength work. He gave 2 minute recoveries for 800s, 2 to 2.5 minutes for 1000s, 3 to 3.5 minute recoveries for miles. He put "NO WALKING" in caps and underlined in his written outline on page 45.

Furthermore, he stressed that if the athlete can't hold the pace over the course of the workout, they should slow the pace rather than switch to walk recovery or longer recovery. He did say that for a 400-800 athlete, he might not give them 6 x 800 but might make it 2 x 800, 2 x 400, 2 x 800, 2 x 400.

My interpretation for is that by keeping the recovery relatively short and by jogging the recovery rather than standing or walking, you are trying to reduce the anaerobic involvement in this workout. The anaerobic involvement is reduced and the aerobic involvement is increased by not allowing the anaerobic system to recharge much during the recovery.

I know you worked with Gags and I'm assuming these diary entries are from the period Nick was working with Gags. If these are from the Rowland era, I'm not sure how Rowland's philosophy compares with Gagliano's philosphy.

I'm curious about his training diary not mentioning pace, which would be a prime determiner of the other variables.

oldsub4 wrote:

Nick does his max 400m plus 4 secondsx2. 47 400 and 51.4 average 800m.....he might have one of the biggest anaerobic systems the world has ever seen. Seb Coe was 46.5 400 and 50.8 average 800 pace.....Rudisha 45 and 50.4.....

That makes no sense. Greater anaerobic power should improve 400 speed more than 800 and widen the gap. Like +8 anaerobic powerhouse Juantorena.

That Symmonds is able to even-split so well shows he has a greater aerobic contribution than most.

michael t.mith wrote:

I'm curious about his training diary not mentioning pace, which would be a prime determiner of the other variables.

They do mention pace. Look at the first page. The pace isn't that impressive, thats one of the reason I was so surprised about the long recovieries.

OldSub4:

I've always done long intervals and similar in an even pace, do you recommend cut downs?

And if so....how hard do you end these sessions? I assume one should start somewhere above treshold pace and end below...?

SlowFatMaster wrote:

I know you worked with Gags and I'm assuming these diary entries are from the period Nick was working with Gags. If these are from the Rowland era, I'm not sure how Rowland's philosophy compares with Gagliano's philosphy.

This is from 2012, Rowland was his coach.

Of course, that's the first thing written in the original post. Reading comprehension fail on my part!