Wang Junxia - Was she on peds or was she on PEDs???

Jeff Wigand wrote:

"We have no doubt the marks themselves are legitimate, even the 10,000," said Jeff Hollobaugh, managing editor of Track & Field News. "We had a correspondent there. Omega timers were there. She did run 25 laps. We have great skepticism about what might be going on there, but as far as the actual marks, they are legitimate."

-John Crumpacker, SF Examiner

September 26, 1993

I am sorry but you're not able to distinguish a 385m track from a 400m track with plain eyesight.

There is a reason that track was demolished.

Fast Dude Runner wrote:

I am sorry but you're not able to distinguish a 385m track from a 400m track with plain eyesight.

Huang Danwei, who ran 20.78 at the 1995 Asian Championships in Jakarta, could only manage 20.92 for 193m? Mu Weiguo, who ran 1:46.6 in 1994, could only run 1:49.27 for 770m? Even a 1:50 effort would have yielded 1:45.8 - which would still stand as a national record.

Not one men's national record stands from the 1993 National Games, while 10 women's national records are still standing from that meet.

Ma Miaolan crushed all her bests in the heptathlon in at the 1993 National Games. Were the official measuring tapes fixed, too?

Fast Dude Runner wrote:

There is a reason that track was demolished.

Yes, it was being renovated as part of Beijing's failed bid for the 2000 Olympics. But it was just fine for the 1990 Asian Games.

A short track would have been noticeable given that everyone would have run personal bests. But only the women ran so well.

And again in Shanghai in 1997.

Exactly and some other athletes who were coached by Ma were busted a few yrs later. Before you idiots start making your retarded responses, what coach is going to smash the record books clean with a bunch of average athletes and then think hang on I'd better start feeding this new lot steroids.[/quote]

Sometimes when people are used to having winners they don't accept any less than that next. After Wang left, perhaps he started giving drugs to his athletes in order to keep the money coming in. Or you know, sometimes coaches have no idea their athletes are using drugs.

Well anything is possible. Perhaps they were doped, everyone who know anything about athletics knows they were

And when did he smash the record books with a bunch of average athletes? They were medalists long before and long after those world records were set.[/quote]

Juniors can dope as well - but looking at their improvement everyone thinks they started doping or racked it up in those couple of years

Keep posting your crap everyone knows they doped

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Keep posting your crap everyone knows they doped

You're confusing "thinks" and "knows". If you think she's so doped, then do you also think Geb was doped? You should just to be fair.

Your is comments are as stupid as your premise. UK athletics btw is at is at its lowest point in performance history ( UK athletics has nothing to do with Mo ) , maybe some PED's might help your embarrassing if not the shameful coaching and development of athletes.Maybe the worst of a developed nation at this point.

The premise of the original question was about Wang , everything stated is purely assumptive , not a shred of evidence directly tied to her. No one knows anything about Chinese women runners at that specific time that is posting here , no one was close or working around the Chinese athletes at that time.

So you have a 20 year old quote of a newspaper writer that was quoting a magazine editor that said he had an unnamed correspondent that he said that the one race looked legit.

And no link to this source.

Meanwhile no video has ever been shown and no one really has stepped up to say they saw these races.

Wang didn't dope.

The only thing Wang was on was her bike, busting her .ass six hours a day.

JUST DO IT

* wrote:

So you have a 20 year old quote of a newspaper writer that was quoting a magazine editor that said he had an unnamed correspondent that he said that the one race looked legit.

And no link to this source.

Meanwhile no video has ever been shown and no one really has stepped up to say they saw these races.

You're implying that Track and Field News doesn't know what it's talking about?

It's just a step removed from NASA faking the moon landing that:

-Workers Stadium was refit after the 1990 Asian Games

-A short track with improper measurements was laid down (likely by a non-Chinese company like Mondo)

-That the shortness extended to the jumps allowing Chinese women to set records in field events and the heptathlon

-That the Chinese men performed so miserably that they couldn't run better than 10.24, 20.90, 45.85, 1:49.27, and 3:48 despite posting better times in subsequent meets

-That Omega's Swiss timers and other foreigners (including TFN's correspondent) wouldn't notice or would willfully ignore incorrect starting positions or lap counting, nevermind the tens of thousands of spectators in the stands.

How on earth could Omega not have noticed the full distance not being completed? How short could the track possibly be to account for the women's other worldly runs AND the men's mediocre runs? And again in Shanghai four years later?

Jeff Wigand, I appreciate your taking the time to hang onto this thread. It appears you know more about it than the rest of us, and I say that sincerely.

What I'm trying to wrap my mind around is why/how did they only run these mutant times in a couple of day period. EPO couldn't be tested for at the time, so there is no reason they would have changed the protocol after absolutely smashing the records.

Wang has dozens of 10,000m marks in the top 1000 of all-time, and her times are remarkably consistent, except for the 29:31, which corresponds much more closely with her time through 24 laps on nearly all of her other times in the top 1000 list.

And for several 3000m runners to have a mark 15 seconds or so faster than their next best performance outside that 24 hour window, it's just mind boggling how they pulled it off if the distance wasn't somehow altered. Doping alone doesn't explain it. Komen ran crazy fast for a brief period as well, but at least he had multiple marks in multiple stadiums (6 or 7 in the top 20) over a couple of year period so there is no doubt to the legitimacy of the distance, even if there is skepticism around the practices of that era.

The lack of consistency makes no sense because the doping that has proven to work so incredibly, EPO and blood doping, could not be tested for at that time. Why would they scale it back so dramatically? Do you think there may have been a scare due to blood too thick? I know a lot of cyclists were dying in their sleep at that time.

I am not registering to read the full article but I am implying that the writer didn't witness it.

I think the track was legit and that they altered the start for those specific records.

Improbable, yes.

But not as improbable as those performances.

It's not just EPO/blood doping. The difference between what they ran in Stuttgart and in Beijing one month later was complete unrestricted doping, while there were in competition controls in Stuttgart.

It's clear from the men's results that the track wasn't short. Someone who can run anywhere near 1:46 would run much faster than 1:49 on a track that's even 10m short.

Also, the fact that the meet was timed by Omega's Swiss timers and had foreign observers there (not to mention thousands of others) makes it clear that they didn't just start at some other line. We can see that in the few clips we have of Qu's 1500m world record that they don't start somewhere where they shouldn't. And starting in the wrong position wouldn't add any credence to Wang's incredible finish in the women's 10000m.

So if we know that it couldn't be a short track (because the men ran average), they couldn't have started at the wrong position (because we've had nothing but confirmation from the foreign observers to that effect, and you know a publication like TFN would love to break that story and get these world records back within reach, not to mention the fact that the 1500m start doesn't look off), and that only the women excelled (a tale tell sign of steroid use) what are we left with?

This is drug use. For the lasting effect of the marks and the amount of time in which they were set, the most successful use of drugs we've ever seen. Only approached again in the women's 1500m in Shanghai. Even the fact that the effect was replicated for more or less a single race (to a less extent in the 5000m and 10000m) four years later on a different, also internationally recognized track must make it clear that the surface and timing were legitimate.

* wrote:

I am not registering to read the full article but I am implying that the writer didn't witness it.

I think the track was legit and that they altered the start for those specific records.

Improbable, yes.

But not as improbable as those performances.

How does that make any sense?

Not only are you claiming that Track & Field News and/or their correspondent are lying about what was witnessed, and that Omega's Swiss timers went along with this, but:

Where should the 1500m start have been? How could they have used one line for the women and normal line for the men and gotten away with it?

How would a moved up start line have helped Wang close her 3000m would a 2:36.4 final kilometer and close her 10000m running 5:31.9 for the final 2000m? We know she crossed the correct finish line:

The only explanation that makes sense is drugs (combined with talent and very hard training, not seen in any of the Eastern Bloc state programs).

Jeff Wigand wrote:

The only explanation that makes sense is drugs (combined with talent and very hard training, not seen in any of the Eastern Bloc state programs).

Why does it not make sense that they simply were just faster than everyone else? Them being on drugs isn't the ONLY conclusion. I think it's unfair to accuse them with no failed drug tests, don't you? Do you think Geb was on drugs in the 90s?

kdkl wrote:

I think it's unfair to accuse them with no failed drug tests, don't you? Do you think Geb was on drugs in the 90s?

It's not the same because:

-Geb replicated his form year after year

-He performed at his best outside of his home country

-He isn't one of a few limited top Ethiopian performers

-Others, not just just from his home country, have come within striking distance of his best times. In fact, they were all broken in times of more stringent testing.

If Geb had gone from his gold medal junior runs in 1992 to running 12:26 for 5000m and 7:15 for 3000m in his home nation and then went back into the void (only to run in Atlanta at a much more earthly level, then you would have a point.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

It's not the same because:

-Geb replicated his form year after year

-He performed at his best outside of his home country

-He isn't one of a few limited top Ethiopian performers

-Others, not just just from his home country, have come within striking distance of his best times. In fact, they were all broken in times of more stringent testing.

If Geb had gone from his gold medal junior runs in 1992 to running 12:26 for 5000m and 7:15 for 3000m in his home nation and then went back into the void (only to run in Atlanta at a much more earthly level, then you would have a point.

What does replicating form year after year have to do with drugs? Plenty maybe even most athletes struggle to have more than one peak year.

What does where you get your PR have to do with drugs? This point isn't even true though. She won two Gold medals on two other continents. I'd call that 'performing at her best in other countries' wouldn't you?

What does the number of successful fellow countrymen have to do with how fast someone can run? Am I limited by how fast other Americans run?

People from other countries have come within striking distance of her times or ability. And they have done it under stronger testing too. Dibaba and Defar's performances over 5000 and 10000 are equal to Wang's performances over 1500-10000. In fact, their 5000m best times are BETTER than Wang's. If they really wanted to, they could run the times that Wang ran. Do you not agree?

Over the same amount of years, Geb took more time off the 10k record than Wang did. If Geb had been born a little earlier, he could have broken the 5000m record during his 10k record.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

It's not just EPO/blood doping. The difference between what they ran in Stuttgart and in Beijing one month later was complete unrestricted doping, while there were in competition controls in Stuttgart.

I'll defer to your better judgement regarding length of the track and that they ran the proper amount of laps and started at the right points.

But I was under the impression EPO in '93 WAS completely unrestricted in that it could not be tested for. Were they testing hematocrit percent at that time, or were they only able to look for steroids, stimulants, etc. that are essentially worthless in comparison to EPO?

Wang Junxia was supposed to release a biography soon, which would be an interesting read. The amount of volume and intensity she put her body through must have been ridiculous.

domestic pro wrote:

Jeff Wigand wrote:

It's not just EPO/blood doping. The difference between what they ran in Stuttgart and in Beijing one month later was complete unrestricted doping, while there were in competition controls in Stuttgart.

I'll defer to your better judgement regarding length of the track and that they ran the proper amount of laps and started at the right points.

But I was under the impression EPO in '93 WAS completely unrestricted in that it could not be tested for. Were they testing hematocrit percent at that time, or were they only able to look for steroids, stimulants, etc. that are essentially worthless in comparison to EPO?

Wang Junxia was supposed to release a biography soon, which would be an interesting read. The amount of volume and intensity she put her body through must have been ridiculous.

There was no test at all for synthetic EPO until 2000 so they could have used it to their hearts' delight. I'm referring to other hormones, such as steroids. At the World Championships, there would have been the risk of testing positive in competition as Ben Johnson had five years earlier.

And even though there were some athletes that tested positive at the 1997 National Games, I feel confident in saying that Ma could load up him women on as much as they could handle right up to the competition. This, in my mind, would account for:

-why they were on a different planet in September 1993, while they were closer to Earth one month earlier in Stuttgart

-why only the women performed so well (since women have a much higher response to men's hormones than men)

-why they never ran on the 3:50/8:06 level outside of China (they were very good in Stuttgart, but not that good)

-why they were able to turn in such performances in such a short period of time

The question becomes: why in China in the 1990s and why didn't the other Eastern Bloc women run at a similar level if you can attribute this main bump to steroids (along with blood transfusions)?

I think they probably would have gotten closer if they had employed Ma's other methods. He took his group in Liaoning and hammered them, day after day. The Eastern Bloc middle distance runners of the 1980s were all on steroids and blood doping, too, but did their coaches train them like this, without regard if large numbers of the group were broken? Did they control every aspect of their lives, and rule them as an absolute autocrat?

kdkl wrote:

People from other countries have come within striking distance of her times or ability. And they have done it under stronger testing too. Dibaba and Defar's performances over 5000 and 10000 are equal to Wang's performances over 1500-10000. In fact, their 5000m best times are BETTER than Wang's. If they really wanted to, they could run the times that Wang ran. Do you not agree?

I'd actually just like to address this portion of the post.

Dibaba and Defar, with an army of male pacers helping them along the way, most definitely could not approach Wang Junxia's times, and their 5000m and 10000m times are pitiful when compared to Junxia's performances.

Wang Junxia's performances are as follows:

1500m- 3:51.92

3000m- 8:06

5000m- 14:51 (officially)

5000m- 14:26 (unofficially as the second 5000m of her 10000m record)

10000m- 29:31

Defar's Performances:

1500m- 4:02

3000m- 8:24

5000m- 14:12

10000m- 29:59

Dibaba's Performances:

1500m- ????

3000m- 8:29

5000m- 14:11

10000m- 29:54

Do you really think 29:54 is within striking distance of 29:31???? Dibaba would be almost 150 meters back! Junxia completely outclasses the other two in every event except the 5000m, and incidentally, her real 5000m PR is the 14:26 she split at the end of her 10000m record.

The only reason the 5000m record survived is because it wasn't a premier event in 1993, or else the Chinese likely would've had their drugged up women put that one out of reach as well. If Junxia had run the 5000m in Beijing in 1993, there's a chance that the damn record could be under 14:00.

Dibaba and Defar are likely drugged as it is. However, Junxia would absolutely put them to shame, both in performance, and in just how drugged up the performance was.

Of course it was drug use, but there aren't any drugs in the world that can make a woman running 30 minute pace close her last 2k in 5:40. That's just ludicrous. There had to be something else going on. And again, the men's results were not mediocre, and therefore do not disprove that something was odd about the length of the track. Four men's national records were set on the track. How many times do you see four national records broken in a domestic, late-season meet? The fact that those records were subsequently broken just means that the Chinese men were either not doped or did not respond to doping in the way the women did. Again, there has been all sorts of doping in the history of track, especially in the 90s. It makes no sense to conclude that Ma had access to something that could produce such untouchable performances that were so far beyond what any other doped athletes could do.

As to the timers and the international observers, there are two possibilities, both of which could coexist with the short track. The first is that you can't tell with a naked eye how long a track is. If you went to Franklin Field and the rail had been moved in or out a lane, would you be able to tell which lane was a "true" 400 meters? Of course you wouldn't. That stadium had a huge international track with all sorts of extra Mondo surface inside and outside of the oval. It would have been very easy to add an inside lane-- a lane zero-- and run races there.

The second possibility about the observers and timers is that it was all a deliberate conspiracy. I don't find that likely, but I also always assumed you couldn't buy off doping control in the Tour de France, and I was pretty wrong about that. Chinese athletics have a long history of brazen rule-breaking for the sake of bringing home more glory to China. I wouldn't put a deliberately short track past them at all.