Labor lawyers: How is it legal for Competitor Group to use volunteers without paying minimum wage at races?

But Pat Rizzo has made way more than minimum wage. He has been paid in travel and hotel rooms. Others may be volunteers but not this clown. 2 Nights in a shared hotel room is about $200 plus air fare $300. He has been paid $500 for Philly alone. That is over 65 hours at minimum wage.

This is why Competitor Group has made the decision to stop. Pat Rizzo types think they provide greater value than they do and simply don't appreciate what they have been given. From his blog it sounds to me like he has been given more financially than he has given back and he thinks he is volunteering?

Charles not in charge wrote:

But Pat Rizzo has made way more than minimum wage. He has been paid in travel and hotel rooms. Others may be volunteers but not this clown. 2 Nights in a shared hotel room is about $200 plus air fare $300. He has been paid $500 for Philly alone. That is over 65 hours at minimum wage.

This is why Competitor Group has made the decision to stop. Pat Rizzo types think they provide greater value than they do and simply don't appreciate what they have been given. From his blog it sounds to me like he has been given more financially than he has given back and he thinks he is volunteering?

65 hours ~ 2-3 weeks of marathon training (~4 hours/day). Your comment is like saying you local 5k winner works at $400/hour for his 15minute 5k win last weekend ($100 first place). This doesn't account for the hours/days/months of work leading up to that win.

Could volunteering at a race be concidered a public service even if it is run by a for profit company I know high school kids get credit for volunteering at race for community service needed to graduate. And the city is basicaly paying CG to put on race to bring money into local economy and CG does pay the city for using city resources.

My feeling is that all these people are volunteering to help the runners out and not who is making money. Like it or not most average runners enjoy races like R&R and having these runners enjoy doing races pumps more money into running. Pat Rizzo is not looking at the big picture, only sees the money that goes to CG not the money being senp in other areas.

It sounds like the law isn't really clear, but my question is WHY would you volunteer at a RnR race?

This is who you are donating your time and services to:

http://www.caleracapital.com/index.html

Is it really that fun to pass out cups of water in order to give Calera Capital a higher return on its investment?

It sounds like Calera/Competitor is just taking advantage of a culture of volunteering to support non-profits to make more money for its wealthy investors. Personally, I'd rather go for a nice easy run on Sunday morning than donate my time to a bunch of rich guys.

You guys do realize that you're cutting your nose off to spite your face, don't you.

Requiring for profit companies to pay race volunteers is going to ruin races. In my area, the best races are put on by the local running stores and a couple of local, for-profit, race management companies. They wouldn't be able to put on races if they had to pay all the workers.

The only races that would be left would be put on by the non-profits and we know how the majority of those races go - 3.5 mile 5Ks, no closed roads, poorly marked courses, etc.

On the other hand, these for profits could continue to put on races and have to charge double or triple the entry fees in order to pay workers.

RD-D2 wrote:

In my area, the best races are put on by the local running stores and a couple of local, for-profit, race management companies. They wouldn't be able to put on races if they had to pay all the workers.

The only races that would be left would be put on by the non-profits and we know how the majority of those races go - 3.5 mile 5Ks, no closed roads, poorly marked courses, etc.

Totally the opposite where I live. When I think about the best races every year within an hour's drive of where I live, all are put on by non profits, local running clubs, etc. I can think of a few for-profit companies that put on races, they're ok, but they tend to be over-priced for the experience you get.

That's not to say all non profits who put on races around here are putting on good races, there sure are some stinkers. I would say the non profits put on both the best and worst races around here, whereas the for profits don't put on any truly awful races but they don't put on the better races either.

RD-D2 wrote:You guys do realize that you're cutting your nose off to spite your face, don't you.

Requiring for profit companies to pay race volunteers is going to ruin races. In my area, the best races are put on by the local running stores and a couple of local, for-profit, race management companies. They wouldn't be able to put on races if they had to pay all the workers.

The only races that would be left would be put on by the non-profits and we know how the majority of those races go - 3.5 mile 5Ks, no closed roads, poorly marked courses, etc.

On the other hand, these for profits could continue to put on races and have to charge double or triple the entry fees in order to pay workers.

Like I said above, I don't know about labor law, but I do know I wouldn't volunteer to help out Calera Capital.

With my local running store, I know the guy who owns it and have no problem volunteering to help him out. He is not getting rich off of selling shoes and sets up races that contribute to the local running community. If he ever turns a profit off of his races, it's not much. The gross amount from entry fees is still chicken feed.

That is just not the same as Calera Capital, which is in the business of buying other businesses worth tens or hundreds of millions of dollars and flipping them in a few years for xx% profit to their wealthy private investors. I'm not donating my time to wealthy private investors.

Interesting question. A company here that runs childrens consignments sales calle Rhea Lana is currently in a battle with the US Labor Department because they have volunteers but are a for profit company. I honestly think that this is a pretty similar thing. Also it was not a volunteer that brought up this case and brought them to court but instead the US Labor Department.

fwiw wrote:

I think you raised an excellent point and there were a lot of very rude comments that showed that the posters actually did not even see the legal issue you raised. If there's not already, perhaps courts will find an exception for events such as this that arguably have some sort of civic benefits - especially when they are one day affairs. Or perhaps not. I wonder how the Thanksgiving Parade in NY is structured - I think many people volunteer and perhaps Macy's is just the title sponsor of a not-for-profit entity - I have no idea. The Disney Marathon would be another - do they accept volunteers and will they in the future in light of the MLB case? I imagine Disney's and Macy's lawyers have looked at this issue though.

yeah, great point. My wife is going to sue the local PTA for not paying her when she volunteered at the bake sale fundraiser.

Thanks for raising this profound legal issue.

Idiot.

An ancient law of business that many do not seem to realise: "you do not get what you DESERVE you get what you NEGOTIATE!" If you want something learn how to negotiate!

My wife is an employment attorney and has observed that in her opinion no for-profit enterprise coud legally run races with volunteer workers. She speculated that they might be able to pay a non-profit a nominal amount as a contribution and get the non-profit to actually arrange the volunteers, but that coud go wrong in a number of ways. A local running club or other non-profit race race organizer would not have this problem. She believed that the case would likely be a slam dunk in our state.

I take most of you guys have never volunteered for a competitor or any other event. What competitor does is solicit civic or non profit groups in the area for groups of volunteers. Competitor donates money to these groups or charities for providing volunteers. In essence, people are volunteering in order for competitor to give money to their charity or civic group. Sure there may be a few people who are not part of groups, but the VAST majority are. This goes for a lot of larger local races too.

If you people complaining ever volunteered you would know this.

Jeffrey D. Boomhauer wrote:

[quote]fwiw wrote:

yeah, great point. My wife is going to sue the local PTA for not paying her when she volunteered at the bake sale fundraiser.

Thanks for raising this profound legal issue.

Idiot.

Perhaps you should actually read the information quoted on this thread from the Department of Labor's website. There is an important distinction under the law between non-profit organizations and for-profit organizations. Care to guess which one the PTA is?

Out of curiosity I went to the Disney Marathon website to see if they accept volunteers. It sent me to another link

http://espnwwos.disney.go.com/about/volunteer/

They have a sports enthusiasts program but it says this is to benefit charities - not Disney.

The link to volunteer for the Wine and Dine 1/2 is actually to volunteer on behalf of the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society which is listed as the "beneficiary" of the 1/2 marathon.

At least in this case, it looks like Disney structured their volunteer program to be charitable. I'm not sure what they do in their other races.

As a matter of public policy you probably can't contract around or waive the no volunteer restriction (to the extent there is one) in the case of for profit companies but I wonder what paperwork volunteers have to sign.

The OP definitely raises a good point. It seems like the FLSA would prohibit volunteers for a for-profit organization, but one question I have is how the exemption for Seasonal Amusement or Recreational Establishments under the FLSA plays into this. See this website for some details:

http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs18.htm

I don't think this exemption would apply, but it is an interesting twist. As mentioned, there is a suit currently pending against baseball for using volunteers at the all-star fan fest. It will be interesting to see how that turns out.

I think your wife would be wrong, don't you think a company that handles billions of dollars has a few lawyers already looking at this.

ChuckD wrote:

I take most of you guys have never volunteered for a competitor or any other event. What competitor does is solicit civic or non profit groups in the area for groups of volunteers. Competitor donates money to these groups or charities for providing volunteers. In essence, people are volunteering in order for competitor to give money to their charity or civic group. Sure there may be a few people who are not part of groups, but the VAST majority are. This goes for a lot of larger local races too.

If you people complaining ever volunteered you would know this.

yep. I am an rd for two small races a year in my community. sometimes when we ask groups for volunteers it feels like they are extorting us. I once had a group agree to provide some volunteers and then three days before the race say they needed a bigger donation or they wouldn't provide any. it felt like dealing with the mafia.

///////////////// wrote:

I think your wife would be wrong, don't you think a company that handles billions of dollars has a few lawyers already looking at this.

Because big companies never break the law...

ChuckD wrote:

I take most of you guys have never volunteered for a competitor or any other event. What competitor does is solicit civic or non profit groups in the area for groups of volunteers. Competitor donates money to these groups or charities for providing volunteers. In essence, people are volunteering in order for competitor to give money to their charity or civic group. Sure there may be a few people who are not part of groups, but the VAST majority are. This goes for a lot of larger local races too.

If you people complaining ever volunteered you would know this.

This is pretty interesting and I wonder if it would hold up in court as it seems to be an attempt to run around the FSLA. If Competitor is giving the charity money in exchange for providing volunteers than it is not donating the money -it is paying for a service.