Was Henry at that level in 1976? I don't recall that he was but it's been a long time.
Was Henry at that level in 1976? I don't recall that he was but it's been a long time.
To think that US athletes were clean in Montreal would be faulty logic. Mac Wilkins and Bruce Jenner were doped to the gills and I'm sure that many others were as well. Talk about the wild west of steroid use.
An interesting fact: Duncan Macdonald was sick in Montreal and didn't get out of the heats, but later that summer broke Pre's U.S. record in the 5K, running 13:19.7, becoming the first American under 13:20 with a time only nine seconds short of the world mark . I'm giving props to Dunc beause we were teammates in college; I know that Duncan wasn't much of a kicker, but he could have been a Montreal finalist without his bad luck.
Pre would have been a finalist, too, and probably running well under 13:20, but he would have been lucky to have grabbed a bronze. I've read somewhere that he ran a 49-second 440-yards as a freshman, but Kenny Moore (in his book about Bill Bowerman) claims that Prefontaine never broke fifty.
The tough part is that back then there were not as many chances to run super fast. A guy like Pre pretty didn't run any faster in 74 than he did in 72. Maybe he was due to have a big break through and become a 13:10 guy or maybe he had peak was still going to be a 13:20 guy in Montreal. Who knows.
starmiler wrote:
An interesting fact: Duncan Macdonald was sick in Montreal and didn't get out of the heats, but later that summer broke Pre's U.S. record in the 5K, running 13:19.7, becoming the first American under 13:20 with a time only nine seconds short of the world mark . I'm giving props to Dunc beause we were teammates in college; I know that Duncan wasn't much of a kicker, but he could have been a Montreal finalist without his bad luck.
Pre would have been a finalist, too, and probably running well under 13:20, but he would have been lucky to have grabbed a bronze. I've read somewhere that he ran a 49-second 440-yards as a freshman, but Kenny Moore (in his book about Bill Bowerman) claims that Prefontaine never broke fifty.
Wow Unbelievable wrote:
It's 2013. Do you know where your 21st century runners are?
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Better question wrote:
Pheidippides died in 490 BC at age 40. Would he have medaled in the 2004 Olympic marathon?
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Sloop John B wrote:
Wow, I must say I'm so impressed with this thread. This is the first time, ever, that I've heard people speculate if Prefontaine would have won the 5k in Montreal against Viren. This is such a clever think piece and to imagine, no one has ever contemplated this topic ever. It's not like people have talked about this exact thread so many times that it's a pointless discussion or anything. To the writer of this thread I give my utmost gratitude for expanding the breath of academic discussion about track and field. Bravo my dear friend bravo!!
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Sloop John B wrote:
Wow, I must say I'm so impressed with this thread. This is the first time, ever, that I've heard people speculate if Prefontaine would have won the 5k in Montreal against Viren. This is such a clever think piece and to imagine, no one has ever contemplated this topic ever. It's not like people have talked about this exact thread so many times that it's a pointless discussion or anything. To the writer of this thread I give my utmost gratitude for expanding the breath of academic discussion about track and field. Bravo my dear friend bravo!!
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HRE wrote:
Was Henry at that level in 1976? I don't recall that he was but it's been a long time.
Henry Rono was a Kenyan international (NZ Games) in January 1975. He medalled in 3 events over 3 days (5,000 steeple 10,000 in that order).
NZ Games had huge names at that meet.
I don't think Henry competed in Europe in the summer of 1975 (not many Kenyans did back then).
sub3over40 wrote:
68790&*((& wrote:If he Lydiardized his training he would have won, even vs. Viren. The Oregon system did not give him enough volume, miles at aerobic pace.
^^^^^^^ This. Viren was so good because Lydiard had spent a lot of time in Finland and the Finn adopted his techniques. Pre was a great runner but was beaten by a better training system.
Decent point, but Bowerman spent a fair amount of time with Lydiard over the years, and Dellinger used Bowerman's system.
I think I remember that Henry also was the NCAA Cross Country Champion in 1976 proving his fitness and was to be the flag bearer at the 1976 Olympics but Kenya boycotted the day before the Olympics started.
Coaches News Network wrote:
To think that US athletes were clean in Montreal would be faulty logic. Mac Wilkins and Bruce Jenner were doped to the gills and I'm sure that many others were as well. Talk about the wild west of steroid use.
Jenner noticably shrunk after Montreal and by the way what ever happened to his body hair? I think he lasered it away. Viren was blood doping back then. Pre probably had a chance for bronze in the 10,000.
I saw that 5000m race live. Hildebrand, Quax, Viren, Foster, and Dixon were moving quite well on the last lap. I imagine by then, Pre might have been right in that race. By 1976, he might have been a little stronger and a little faster.
good job wrote:
sub3over40 wrote:^^^^^^^ This. Viren was so good because Lydiard had spent a lot of time in Finland and the Finn adopted his techniques. Pre was a great runner but was beaten by a better training system.
Decent point, but Bowerman spent a fair amount of time with Lydiard over the years, and Dellinger used Bowerman's system.
Bowerman might have spent time with Lydiard, but he had his own system. Basically, date pace/goal pace year round. The paces just got faster. There was no phase where the runner just worked on developing an aerobic base which is the cornerstone of Lydiard. Bowerman trained all systems year round, but Lydiard would only add speed nearing the competitive season.
[/quote]Henry Rono was a Kenyan international (NZ Games) in January 1975. He medalled in 3 events over 3 days (5,000 steeple 10,000 in that order).[/quote]
Rono only won medals in two of those events in 1975 at the New Zealand Games:
5000m - 3rd
Steeplechase - 6th
10000m - 2nd
And it was over four days, not three.
Befitting his very stubborn nature, I think Pre would have stuck to the 5000m in Montreal, regardless of the presence of Quax and Dixon and Stewart and Foster. I recall reading somewhere, years ago, that he had no great love for the 10000m. In the 1976 Olympic 5000m, had he run, I don't think he would have placed higher than 5th or 6th.
Prefontaine was already a mature runner by 1974. Just look at his yearly progress in lowering his PR's for the 5,000:
1972: 13:23
1973: 13:22
1974: 13:21
How likely would it have been for Pre to lower his PR to 13:13 by 1976? That was the PR of the bronze medalist, Klaus-Peter Hildenbrand, going into Munich. I don't specifically recall Hildenbrand's 1500 PR, but I think it was around 3:35. In any case, the guy had a very fast kick.
As for Quax, his best time for the 1,500 was 3:34, which was equivalent to 3:52 for the mile. Pre's best mile time was 3:54.6. Dixon's 1500 PR was 3:33, and his PR for the 5,000 was 13:17.
Back on July 18, 1974, at the "July Games" in Stockholm, Pre finished behind Dixon and Puttemans in the two mile, with a time of 8:18.29.
8:14.32 Rod Dixon NZL
8:16.55 Emiel Puttemans BEL
8:18.29 Steve Prefontaine USA
So it's hard to envision Prefontaine being able to outkick the medalists in the Munich 5,000, since they were better finishers and had faster PRs.
You make a good case with those stats. It seems that the 10K would have been Pre's only realistic medal hope in '76
bolder1 wrote:
You make a good case with those stats. It seems that the 10K would have been Pre's only realistic medal hope in '76
Thanks. I agree that Pre would have been in the mix with Lopes and Foster in the 10,000 in Montreal. Foster had a stomach virus, so he wasn't anywhere near full capacity.
Btw, I meant "going into Montreal." Not "going into Munich."
HRE: This is off topic, but might you know the location of Percy Cerutty's home in Portsea? (simply the street where he resided would be sufficient). I've searched the web trying to obtain an address, but couldn't find anything. Was his home on the north or south side of Portsea? I've looked at Portsea via Google maps in an attempt to locate his property, but without reference points, I couldn't find it. My main interest is trying to pinpoint Cerutty's property on Google maps. Since you're from 'down under' thought you'd be the best person to ask. Thanks in advance.